Celtic Rumours Archive May 09 2012

09 May 2012 22:22:00
Been reading about possible teams who we could meet in the CL qualifiers and starting to feel quite optimistic about getting to the group stages . Hopefully get a few quality players in and trim down the squad . IMO we could probably get rid of a whole team of players ,fringe and first team squad........DH

09 May 2012 19:55:02
see the amount of **** at my work who are totally clueless its amazing. they still think cos we changed our name and we kept our history it should be the same for them one of them even showed me the red at companies house and I told him to read it carefully and get back to me. I even told him. if he could not read I would read and explain it for him. he was not happy . stupid stupid ****.

hail hail

Marco1888 {Ed007's Note - Show him this Marco, if he can't understand it then I wouldn't even let him be a tea boy, I hope he doesn't do anything dangerous in his job, (it's a copy and paste from my notes mate):

The Celtic Football and Athletic Company Ltd

I think when you have been asked the same question about six times in a few days it’s worth explaining the issue here. If a football club is liquidated it’s finished. Continuity with its history and records ends. This is not the same as a football company changing its name.

Celtic was established as a sporting club at a meeting in a church hall in November 1887, in many ways, no different than a million other football, karate and badminton clubs. It subsequently registered with the SFA in 1888. In April 1897 it incorporated as a private limited company, registering as The Celtic Football and Athletic Company Ltd at Companies House. It was the 3487 th company to register in Scotland and was given the incorporation number SC003487.

In 1994 the company became a public limited company and changed its name to Celtic PLC but, of course, remained the same company, with the same incorporation number and retained the same registration with the SFA. You can check our corporate history, from incorporation in 1879, to name change in 1994 to our most recent annual return, dated 31 December 2011 (or relevant year), at Companies House.

On the same day Celtic changed its name to Celtic PLC, Fergus McCann changed the name of an off the shelf company, securing the old trading name ‘The Celtic Football and Athletic Company Ltd’, which is fully owned by Celtic PLC, but is not registered as a football club. I assume this was to secure our old name for the club and to protect it from potential abuse.

Ed he is a Fit driver the same as me lol (oh the shame of it )

hail hail

Marco1888 {Ed007's Note - I take it you mean FLT (Fork Lift Truck) driver? No shame in that mate, a good honest job. I drove them for years during my engineering days. Plus you are one of the lucky ones these days to have a job.}

Yes mate I drive counterbalance and reach truck in my job I am constant nights so money is good and there is very few jobs out there

hail hail

Marco1888 {Ed007's Note - I was an engineering workshop manager, but I still didn't mind a wee 'skive' tidying up the yard or that. It's a long story but I actually got a 1/2 tonne forky as part of my Christmas when I was 10. I had to work in the family business at weekends and school holidays. Gee I'm making it sound like I was sent down the pits lol, it was more a toy for me than anything else.}

Too many "eccies" for these peepul I think......maybe they should stop watching the A-Team??

Ed, just a wee query - in the Annual Accounts for CFandACL (listed under Companies House as 'other sporting activities') is there ANY mention of financial figures pertaining to FOOTBALL activities?? {Ed007's Note - Not that I am aware of.}

They can change there name to taxdodgers fc if they agree a cva they can keep that name.if they go bust theyl will be going to division 3

Honestly...we've been in this position since 1994 & 'they' decide now would be a good time to bring this up. Clutching at straws and IQ challenged springs to mind. Mrs E

If, as Ed suggests, the Celtic Football and athletic Company Ltd was borne out of an off the shelf company to stop the name from being abused - why does companies House state that accounts have been posted? {Ed007's Note - I am not suggesting anything.}

We still have the same company registration number as we have had since the beginning. I just say that to them and CLAMPED. Sad sad creatures

Hi ED. Is there any chance that the information in the OP can be changed into picture format. I am sure there are a few R*****s fans out there that would understand this situation better with little smiley faces, colouring in by numbers and child type drawings..... just an idea as I am willing to help the less fortunate understand at their time of need. {Ed007's Note - And you really think that will help? Since when did Rangers fans believe facts over what they actually think happened? :-)

09 May 2012 19:39:05
After a meeting with Neil Doncaster it seems the Celtic Trusts view is there will be a debt free unpunished rangers in the spl next season..stevo

If this where to happen I hope all member clubs contact uefa and get them to decide as our governing body will not be acting in a fit and proper manner.

hail hail

Marco1888

Marco are you right in the heed?
It's the member clubs who will decide Rangers fate.
Stunned Bear

I think they should be in the SPL next season. They don't deserve to be and it is unethical. BUT if your telling me that the SFA could possibly let Rangers into the SPL and with no sanctions (points deductions, loss of earnings etc) then they will have a riot on they're hands. It would cause all sorts of trouble. And i can guarantee you that UEFA would get involved, they have done so before in cases of governing body's not taking appropriate action and they would do so in this case. Don't kid yourselfs, they are watching.

They will be playing to a lot of empty stadia if it is.

09 May 2012 17:24:24
Posted on Banter page, my mistake. I am worried that without Rangers vote Celtic will be outvoted 11-1 on potential things like gate receipts and media revenues being split 50/50 etc. A solvent Rangers would have similar self interests to Celtic and would ensure a 10-2 vote thus defeating any proposals detrimental to us, and them! {Ed007's Note - There league is needing restructured any way. The smaller clubs should get a better share of TV money IMO.}

I agree with Ed007. It might even sweeten the deal for the SPL chairmen to throw RFC(IA) out if Celtic offer to vote with them on income restucturing.

Mac

I agree with ed. If we want the league to be more competetive we should be giving the other clubs a bigger piece of the pie, they arent entitled to it but its for the greater good. And they will need it even more if there is to be no Rangers in the SPL next season. Your point is valid however in the fact there could be other proposals that they put forward that we will therefore be helpless to prevent.

I think if the split in Home gates is voted through, Celtic should negotiate their own deal with TV and go it alone.

But dont forget about the voting reforms that are due to be voted on if it comes down to it we will vote to make it a 7to 5 voting system thus mening we could get harts hibs an some others to vote on our side

09 May 2012 18:01:05
In case anyone hasn't seen this yet,but check it out.

Andre Blackman tackles Neil Lennon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4l8b5RVrPI

Jungle Bhoy.

09 May 2012 16:21:53
Ed,
Any thoughts on my earlier submission (not posted) re: Celtic's disadvantage on 11-1 votingin SPL without Rangers? {Ed007's Note - Sorry, I have been busy this afternoon, that is me just back online. I don't know what you asked/said.}

Think it might be this one Ed,on banter page.
09 May 2012 08:50:24
That one's from Tam the Tim.

Jungle Bhoy. {Ed007's Note - I don't think it is mate, I have got it now. The guy reposted it.}

09 May 2012 14:07:38
Hi ed when did the season ticket renewals get sent out cause mine haven't been in yet
BigKev {Ed007's Note - The ticket office have told me they are all in the post Kev and my friend got their's at the start of last week. I have had mine for a while, but I am a CFC Pools agent, so maybe got it earlier.}

My brothers and I got ours last week, they have went up £21. Not a lot of money overall but in this climate and potentially no old firm games I would have thought they would have remained static. That being said I am sure if there were to be no old firm games there would be some value in champions league packages etc (if we qualify)

Bankier Bhoy aka Canadian Pete

09 May 2012 13:40:57
greig spence has been released {Ed007's Note - There is a chance he could go back and join Accies full time.}

Billy reid doesnt rate him

09 May 2012 12:43:37
BRIAN !

RE:-

‘Mrs E, with respect, if you read it carefully I am actually saying we should quite rightly get thrown to the wolves for how we, as a club, have behaved, but the provincial clubs (its not my own opinion - its clearly theirs) certainly appear to believe (and that is the important point in relation to the comments of poster 3) that if Rangers are indeed relegated to Division 3 then their economic futures as clubs would be under serious threat. They will not take an unnecessary gamble on the contrary possibly being true (GJ will explain why - he is a businessman and appears particularly astute financially to me), and I am arguing that no-one can really blame them for that when you think about it. At no point did I say or intimate that either of the Old Firm were above the rules (even though there actually aren't any in place yet regards liquidation occurring within the SPL - which is the problem in a nutshell) or argue that they ever should be, the exact opposite is true.’

To say I find your ‘statement’ to me condescending is putting it mildly. I have read your point and have read it again and you are stating Rangers and Celtic demise will result in other clubs being hit financially and therefore should not adhere to the rules as the powers that be at Hampden and other SPL clubs cannot afford to punish them. You can dress it up how you like and tell me to ask whoever you like but I cannot see anywhere in your post where you are saying anything else.

The club was mismanaged for years by its owners and the fans celebrated accordingly. They also looked on as Celtic did not keep up with the spending when it was obvious to anyone they could have. We reap what we sow.

Mrs E

Brian give it up man. Dont be letting yourself down after making a decent impression. You cannot force your opinions and ideas on others. I think in political terms its called totalitarianism or fascism. Sopot Celt

09 May 2012 01:40:21
In response to Brian.

Didnt see the original posting you mentioned, wouldve provided a response if I had!. so bear (no pun intended) with me I may end up going off on tangents... no change there then lol

Firstlly I have to state my opinion that there is no real right thing for chairmen to do, there cannot be as it stands for the following. Everything has yet to be uncovered and certain so called crimes have not been proved, but they also have not been adequatley disproved as most of what we have is conjuncture, which of course has created the frenzy we see on messageboards and the MSM alike. This for a start creates so many grey areas when thinking about sanctions and punishments. If we were simply dealing in law then its innocent till proven guilty. And as far as i can see there is no full hard evidence to suggest guilt on all counts (yes there is on quite a few) of the accusations filed against Rangers. However it is fun dreaming inventive punishments up, my post about under 23's further down sums this up as an element of my view should proven guilt in a vast array of rule breaches or of general Fair Play and competion or a newco or liquidation occur. And I feel this is a fairly balanced view of how a new set of punishments can be introduced (if i dont say so myself lol)

Putting myself in Houstons, Thompsons or any other SPL clubs manager, Director, Cheif execs etc shoes I would have to take all possible angles into consideration. Firstly I would look at sporting integrity, how these rule breaches or financial misdeeds firstly affected my clubs ability to compete, How it made other teams able to compete and for how long this unfair advantage so to speak was acheived . I would look at the crimes or rule breaches commited and use the current guidlines and structures currently in place to forge my view on adequate punishment based purley on the so called sporting integrity sins committed and seek to make a match between what punishments fit the crime in a purley sporting sense within the existing structure.

I would then have to consider the wider implications to my own club financially should these rules involve demotion or the non existence of Rangers through strict sanctions being implimented. Once again this throws up so many more grey areas and as a general punter I do not have access to direct information on the exact financial implications of there being no Rangers in my league or in existence at all dont even think those at boardroom level in the SFA/SPL etc do either for that matter. However i accept no Rangers would ultimatley lead to a large reduction in revenue available to my club. After seeking more accurate figures on financial losses to my club would i then go back and reveiw the sanctions attributed to the various crimes Rangers could be issued with. And make compromises based on what was ultimatley best for my club and my club alone. I would have to cast my view in what was best for my club, in this scenrio Dundee United. Personally to attempt cut a long answer short (not gonna happen) if in this position I would look at all possible avenues to try and keep Rangers in the SPL. As to a club of my size a potential loss of income wich will certainly be in 6 digits and most likeley 7 digits this would seriously hamper my ability to run my club at a level close to what it is currently and be able to seek out new revenue streams to try and advance further.

Breaches of financial regulation as as happened is not covered very well within the current set or regulations which adds a new set of variables into this mix. This involves the making up of rules and punishments. If in charge of Dundee United for example the same process would be followed above, i would seek to employ punishments that fitted the crime but at the same time would have minimal effect on the operation of my club. This is another area where it gets particrarily tricky and that is being kind. The decision would also have to be measured by other proposed punishments previously added to the list and once again in conjunction with what was best for my club and my club along.

I have managed to get this far without saying what sanctions i would impliment fully. For this i stand by my earlier post, that issues a wide range of punishments on Rangers yet benefits them and all other clubs in the long run.

If Celtic were to build their opinion in a similar way to what i have pointed out above then I do not see how a decision would be made to kill off my club (maybe got specs on here i dunno, everyone else can be the judge here) and cannot see how any chairman in any football club would look to impose sanctions that would finish off their club. I would not support sanctions that were the deatknell for the club i support and doubly so if the decision was taken in the full knowledge that the sanctions or punishments voted for by my clubs representative were taken in full knowledge of the death of my own club. there is no way i can see sanctions being imposed on Rangers where this would be the case for any other club.

In such event where my club were not happy with the punishments dished out, I would then be happy for us to relinquish our SPL share and apply to the SFL in protest, But never to kill the club off. I would hope they would follow a similar decision structure to the one I have set out. We all support our clubs even when they do things fairly and even when they dont and always want the best for them nomatter what crimes they have committed ( financially and footballing of course) If Neil Lennon were to come out and say Celtic should just wind up and cease to exist as a poiint of principle then i for one would want him to step down. I coan envisage a situation where in protest my club could take a sabbatical from scottish football but purley in protest, dont know if that would cause the demise of the club, it probably would now I think so maybe not so much the case. Probably stick to my drop to Div 3 as a protest idea here lol.

AS mentioned above sanctions I would enforce should further ones be needed due to a newco or liquidaton are in my post further down the page.

Hope this answers the questions set, Buggered if i know if I did. Sounded right at the time of typing i guess!

(sorry for the fully extended version Ed, Hope its not all gibberish!)

Evinguu

Uve got too much time on yer hands mate, what will be will be, chill out and stop actin like columbo. Its pretty tragic

So mr/mrs its pretty tragic oh wait... that was a comment not your sign off sorry! In what way am I acting like columbo? Am i conducting a murder investigation? am i conducting any kind of investigation. Yes I am using my own observation to formulate an opinion, but am I right like the scripted columbo? rarely. Am i like him for Answering questions posed by another poster?. Passing on an opinion that can be summed up in more than what will be will be?

Come on how do you get through life with a what will be will be attitude?? consider this made up scenario. An Army marching through your town shooting women and children, do you formulate an opinion on the acts and a possible way of action to save as many people or do we say oh well what will be will be??

Potentially the biggest episode in football in the UK is going on right now and could have an effect on the club I support for a very long time and we just want to sit and say what will be will be? really? nah not my bag ... mate! Come on how do you get through life with a what will be will be attitude?? consider this made up scenario. An Army marching through your town shooting women and children, do you formulate an opinion on the acts and a possible way of action to save as many people or do we say oh well what will be will be?? And in terms of too much time on my hands, well time is not an enemy at 1.30 in the morning and writing a long post helps focus the mind on one thing rather than 1000 to help put it to sleep. To be fair it probably took you as long to read that post as it took me to write it (about 10 minuites) so if you disagree with the points ive made, why not say why you disagree instead of what is essentially moronic abuse and name calling? (and yes i get the irony of me choosing those words) and start a conversation?

That I feel is pretty tragic!

Evinguu

Evingu..Whilst not attempting to sound disparaging towards your post, i would think that most chairmen of all the other clubs would already have a working knowledge gained over a good few years as to what financial implications the old firm fans have on their respective clubs.
So really, your long winded rant at advising them, wasn't really necessary. Unless you had other motives for sharing them with us.
Stunned Bear

Thats a fair point that they probably would but they have not given any indication of exactly what it could mean and probably have no real idea as so much is in the air, im just answering questions posed by another asking me and others to put myself in the shoes of another club. And used the forum here as an outlet to express how i would like these decisions to be made and what grounds they be made on as a response to these questions. Yes i got a fair bit long winded. But being concise at half 1 in the morning isnt my strong point lol. Infact being concise at any time isnt a strong point lol

I am however confused by your closing statement? why would someone have an alternative motive for writing a post based on their opinion?

But if you think that is a rant then christ wait till you see me on a rant!! i think the suicide rate would go up!

Evinguu

Thank you Evingu! What a stooshie I seem to have caused by asking for 2 honest answers to 2 honest questions, lol. You would probably vote the same way these chairmen would/will if you were in their shoes, as the best interests of your INNOCENT club would, and quite rightly, should take priority over everything else. I can't see why that is so difficult to understand?

As usual it seems that no other clubs exist in Scotland other than Celtic and Rangers and the blinkers get pulled down tight on both sides. All I was trying to do was stick up for the little guy (NOT RANGERS IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM!) as I think they are getting a raw out of all of this, sheesh! You have clearly read the post as I intended it to be read and you have given me your honest answers to the questions I ASKED and not went off on other tangents not related to the post or assumed I am working to some sort of pro Rangers agenda. All the grief I have received so far (very little of which actually remotely related to what I had ACTUALLY written) has been worthwhile.

I wish there were more on both sides as open and honest as you.

Brian

Brian..you have waited until you got a response you wanted he hear nothing else.

Do you think we would be having this debate if it was any other club in trouble other than one of the 'Old Firm'. You cannot have rules for Celtic and Rangers and not for the rest...surely even you can see that. Forget the financial implications, it makes a mockery out of Scottish football if this happens. Mrs E

Brian, I think part of the problem we have on sites like this is that words can be read in so many different ways. And it is genuinley hit and miss in regards of how others will interperate ( christ i had 10 go's at spelling that and prob still got it wrong lol) what is really being said. I have found that very often with a lot of my posts.

I cannot see how anyone would make a decision on the current situation and be completley blase about the impact to their own club. Ed007's view is also entirley fair, Punish within the rules no more no less and deal with the fallout afterwards. But i could not envisage a punishment being handed out that is known to cause terminal damage to an innocent club.

This is a very emotive subject for obvious reasons and like to think if i read something i will question the motive like the post i wrote above this one. Or you have to then find yourself in defensive mode cos someone hasnt read what you said or picked up on one slightly ambiguous point and ran with it to extremes.

Not all are like this and the regular named posters i find on here are very open and although may sometimes misinterperet what you say ( as i do too when reading some posts) thats all it is and never goes much further than that.

Suppose we have our Ed to thank for that! Would love to see some of the posts that have not made it in the cut though hint hint lol

Evinguu {Ed007's Note - Believe me mate, you wouldn't. All of us editors would rather sit and read through 10 posts like yours than 100 of the stupid and childish one-liners. Those can range from the ridiculous to the down right vile and disgusting. Plus posts that start with 'I think....' and then aren't signed off are just totally pointless.}

Mrs E, Fair point about not having rules for one lot and some for the othesr. Sadly we find ourselves in a position as a footballing nation where self interest amongst all clubs will come to the fore. And we end up in a situation that creates this monster!

If there is a way to punish rangers within the rules and it not have a detrimental effect on other clubs then sadly the reality is this is what is going to be voted into fruition. It sucks I know.

And just to be clear to anyone my points in the original post would be my thought process if i were a chariman of another club , not neccisarily what i think should happen although is very close if it was based on a self preservation basis. But is sadly the way it will happen and possibly the best outcome we may be able to hope for all round.

This is a scary prospect indeed! as a club should be able to be punished without possibly taking others down.

It seems thet the Old Firm brand built the SPL and one half of this brand holds all the cards to bring it down along with itself again! A Shocking and unforgivveable situation caused by one club. And never in a million years will there an all round conssensus on the way forward punishment wise.

Oh and Mrs E, would we hell be having this debate if it were a Kilmarnock or Dunfermline! It would be a case of bye bye give us our share back hope to never see you again.. Its amazing what the prospect of money does eh?

Evinguu

Evingu: I agree with you regards differing interpretations of the same source material, and I will try and bear that in mind when replying to others in the future.

Mrs E: It's pretty clear you feel aggrieved and intellectually insulted by my reply to your earlier post. Having now read it back I can understand why you would have perceived it to be condescending. I honestly did not write it knowingly in that manner nor with the intention of offending you or as an attempt to belittle you in any way. I apologise unreservedly for having inadvertently done so.

To be clear from the off, personally I am categorically and unequivocally against Rangers being allowed back into the SPL full stop. Division 3 plus additional sanctions would be a fair and just punishment in my opinion and when I have opined this view previously it has generally been agreed with. I also happen to think that it would, in the long term, be a good thing for the Scottish game overall, despite some clubs inevitably falling by the wayside. However, I cannot realistically see how this will be allowed to come to pass as there is too much at stake for the other SPL clubs involved.

The entire thread was simply an attempt to justify why the provincial clubs either won't, or simply can't, allow Rangers to drop out of the SPL. Some will face administration or worse (the Killie chairman has more or less told us that already) and the remainder (at least initially) will be even less competitive and financially stable than they are now.

The purpose of the questions were to get people to admit, by being placed in their shoes and asked to answer two questions, that they could, grudgingly, understand (not necessarily agree) why the people charged with making the decisions for these otherwise innocent (that's the toughest part for me in terms of arguing against their stance morally - these teams have done nothing wrong themselves and would be turkeys voting for Christmas if they did expel Rangers by their own admission) clubs would vote to keep Rangers in the league despite their utterly reprehensible and unjustifiable acts. These clubs, and Celtic, are the innocent parties in all of this yet both sides of the Old Firm are talking about boycotts of away grounds etc, depending on how they vote. I don't think this is fair given the ridiculously difficult moral and emotional dilemma they are faced with. However, it was by no means an attempt to condone their collective decision, if indeed that is the one that is reached on May 30th (or June 10th, July 1st, etc.......lol). My preference, as I said, is Division 3 with additional sanctions for Rangers and my opinion won't change on that.

I fully agree with you that, for the sake of sporting integrity, there can't be one set of rules for the Old Firm and another set for the rest. And neither should there be.

Unfortunately, as Evingu has stated above, that is the sad reality of the situation, probably since the inception of the SPL which brought with it the increasingly unfair financial and fiscal domination of the Old Firm over the rest who subsequently became more or less dependent upon us for their survival in my opinion. The provincial clubs would strive to keep a newco Celtic in the SPL just as hard as they will a newco Rangers, and their decision will be reached on a purely financial basis regardless. Unfortunately popular opinion, sporting integrity, and morals do not come into it for them as their overall primary interest is self preservation, and I can't really blame them. When I placed myself in their shoes, I could see their reasoning even although it definitely didn't, and still doesn't, sit well with me morally.

Apologies once again for any offence caused.

Brian

09 May 2012 00:07:25
I'm starting to wonder whether Rangers will survive at all.

If a Newco is formed then the players have the right to walk away. It's certain that many will, given the absolute shambles that has been occuring. There is then no European football for 3 years, and the likeliehood of a points deduction for 2 years and a 75% reduction in SPL income for 3 years. There will be huge difficulties transferring assets due to Whyte's shareholding and floating charge.

If the club doesn't form a Newco and tries to get out of administration with the Oldco, how can it do so as the administrators have stated that it will take months to agree a CVA, if at all. Where is the cash to run the club during this time. Then there is the Big Tax Case, Ticketus, Dual Contracts, Whyte's shareholding and Whyte's floating charge.

In both scenarios, Oldco and Newco, do you seriously think that they will sell a significant amount of season tickets.

I'm seriously starting to think that this is the end.

K-Dot

I have thought that from the start i think dum and dumer have done a great job keeping them going so long.to my daily amusement they come out with stuff that cracks me up never laughed so much in my life. newco. incubator club. cva mystery bidders. what an absolute farce .and when it ends and it will very soon and sudden the gates will be locked . i don't know what i am going to do with my time or where i will get my laughs perhaps i will follow duff and duffer to there next job

Been wondering the same for some time. I think they will come back but no bigger than Aberdeen or Hearts. I think they will rent a ground for a few years and build a wee stadium if they stay in the league. Duff and Phelps are doing a great job keeping Celtic entertained.

"I'm starting to wonder whether Rangers will survive at all."

There's been a lot of comments that, with miller dropping out, Rangers will be liquidated and have to play in SFL3 next year - accompanied by some dancing round the teepees.

Can't see it being like that at all. Rangers will be liquidated, but the likelihood of them playing football anywhere next year is zero.

08 May 2012 23:12:34
Slightly modified Ed but the original is way down the page in reply to another post and I am giving people the benefit of the doubt by posting it on the main page.

Most Celtic fans on this site that I have had contact with strike me as being genuinely intelligent, honest and principled people (ed007, Evingu, Sopot Celt, Green Jhedi to name but a few) so I am expecting equally honest straight answers to a couple of direct questions instead of the usual political ones I have received so far which have artfully body swerved actually answering the questions directly (“but we aren't in that position, are we”, “hypothetical and would never happen to us”, “consequences are irrelevant”, etc). I am asking these questions, hopefully in a humorous way, in the hope that, as completely honest and principled people, you will at the very least concede how much is at stake for the provincial clubs here and admit that they have been placed in an impossible position through no fault of their own. I am not looking for, or expecting, anyone to say that I am right and everyone else is wrong on this issue either. That is not the objective for me and it may not be the case anyway.

The entire point is about showing that it is not as simple as 'doing the right thing' for these chairmen and managers (if demoting Rangers to Div3 even is the right thing for them to do morally – I still argue that doing so would be contentious morally despite my personal desire for Rangers to begin again on the bottom rung, with additional sanctions imposed incidentally), and that unless we are in their position we have no right to judge them if they indeed proceed and vote the newco into the SPL.

The questions are as follows:

If you WERE (remember I am looking for honesty here) Peter Houston (Thomson would probably be a more realistic figure to use as he calls the shots but it was Houston who spoke out) and you knew that you would be threatening the very existence of your own club (fans, staff, local businesses, the list goes on and on and on and potentially adversely affects tens of thousands in the local communities) by voting to expel Rangers from the single league SPL which currently doesn’t even have set guidelines on how to deal with the issue, would you do it out of principle anyway and to hell with the consequences despite having other punitive options which would solely affect the offending club available to you?

(Honestly? Okay then.)

Secondly, if CELTIC were where Dundee United are financially and your manager came out and voted to kill your club out of principle (in this case affecting an even greater number of people – which makes no difference at all to the argument incidentally), despite, as above, Celtic not being responsible for the situation and the fact that other punishments could be handed out that wouldn't result in your club's demise, as a fan would you be happy about it and cheer him for his integrity or would your answer now be different to the one you gave to the first question (Remember this is a bit like role play and I am looking for ABSOLUTE HONESTY on this question)?

(COME ON, you're taking the proverbial now surely? Your cheeks must be turning bright red as you are writing your reply! ;-) No genuinely passionate supporter in their right mind wants to see their club unnecessarily die because of someone else's mistakes when they don’t have to, do they? If you found yourself in either of these positions, I mean genuinely instead of hypothetically, then your morals would go straight out of the window and you know it. The question is, are you honest enough to admit it. What? You would still stand proud and applaud as your beloved club closed its doors for the last time for no genuinely good reason when it could be so easily avoided despite demotion not really adversely affecting the offending club any more than the other sanctions would have anyway. Fair play to you then, enjoy your shopping trips with the Mrs every weekend and watching the Premiership, lol! Yeah right (to be fair to GJ he has continuously argued that this indeed would be his stance and I honestly view him as being a highly principled man of his word but there can’t be many others out there, if they are being entirely honest with themselves, who would stand by and watch Celtic go to the wall over a principal which would, in essence, have achieved absolutely nothing – unless that would equate to your family and torture exemptions argument in your eyes GJ? If it is what would make the difference for you I wonder? Just thought I would ask one last time, lol.)! Punish Rangers, we more than deserve it, don’t punish everybody else in the process. Three years of being uncompetitive and potentially embroiled in relegation dogfights due to the transfer embargo, whilst watching Celtic walking away with at the very least the title and playing in Champions League qualifiers each year, would be a far harsher punishment than Div3, believe me, if that is indeed how the vote goes).

Brian {Ed007's Note - All I have ever said is that I wanted a fair punishment and Rangers to pay what they owe, Brian. To me a fair punishment is what is stated in the rules for whatever Rangers have/will be found guilty of, if that means liquidation then sorry, that should be it. Rangers as we know it should cease to exist. Nobody helped Motherwell, Gretna or Dundee etc out, why are Rangers any different to those teams? The Italians punished Juventus for breaking the rules, and Serie A is THE most corrupt league in the world. The rules are there for a reason, they should't be changed to help any particular club. And TBH I don't buy all this 'someone else's fault argument, Hugh Adam warned Rangers fans 10 years ago this was going to happen and was dismissed as a bitter old man, John Grieg etc spoke out against Whyte and again were dismissed. Rangers fans can blame who they want, the fact is it is their club, they should be supporting it through thick and thin, not just supporting parts they want. Would all the Rangers' fans who are blaming DM be happy to relinquish every honour won under his regime? If it is his fault (to them) then surely they are all 'tainted' titles as they are admitting that they were one under dubious circumstances.}

Brian...what your basically saying is Celtic & Rangers are above the SFA & any rules (old or new) and can do what they want as the demise (temporary or permanent) of either one could kill Scottish football & put other teams out of business. Mrs E

Modified, thank God you didn't post the original.

K-Dot

The main problem with your questions is that no one actually knows what the effect would be of Rangers not being in the SPL next season. It's all speculation and assumptions that certain deals would fail and there would be less money at the gate.

I put it to you that it may in fact increase competition and increase the number of fans through the gates for the 'smaller' teams as they will have a better chance of getting into Europe and getting access to UEFA cash.

Perhaps, also, if Rangers were to actually cease to exist, maybe some of these 'diehard' Rangers fans might pick another team to support, thus increasing the gate and in turn improving merchandising sales?

This would have the effect that smaller teams would become bigger and more competitive and perhaps cover the hole in income created by a lack of Rangers travelling support attending matches?

Two other things concern me, considering all these Rangers fans and their concern for Scottish Football as a going concern, why do a large amount of these 'fans' wish oblivion on the rest of us if Rangers fail to come out of administration or remain in the SPL? Surely those truly concerned about the game in Scotland would be wishing the rest of us well and doing all they can to help the game if Rangers are truly a lost cause?

Lastly, the so called gang of 10, have done nothing but bleat about the stranglehold Rangers and Celtic have had over them for the past 10 or 15 years, so why are so many of them apparently, keen to maintain the status quo?

As I said, all speculation...

I appreciate your wishing the best for your club but i am afraid its all over for the rangers listen to what your saying its delusional beyond belief there will be no newco or oldco or anything like it the gates will be padlocked very soon i cant see anyway out and i don't think anyone at rangers football club can ether

I understand what ur saying mate and if I'm honest I'm the closest I could possibly be to gutted seeing as it's you lot after all. I have a lot of mates who are hurting like yourself but the truth is ed 007 is right, he's on the money mate. Thats my Honest opinion and that if it were us who had committed these crimes (duel contracts if proven) I would be heartbroken and disgusted with my team, the people who ran the club under that particular tenure and even the players who would have known they were doing something wrong but were given assurances it couldn't come back on them. You didn't deserve this, all you did was support ur club and most likely sang a few sectarian songs every saturday. If I found out Celtic were doing this or ever do find out we committed the same crimes I would never set foot in Celtic park or wear the colours again. It's would ruin it for me. But you know what......I'm honest enough to say that it's easy for me to say but put in that position.....

Rangers fans keep telling us we (SPL) need them. Yet they'd move to England in a heartbeat. So you're happy to go. So go. Scottish football will become more closely contested without your tarnished club. Wipe your feet on the way out would you.

GoldCoastBhoy

Ed. All I am trying to do is ask Celtic supporters to put themselves in the shoes of a supporter of one of the clubs facing potential extinction through absolutely no fault of their own (which obviously excludes Rangers fans) and then tell me the answers would HONESTLY be the same ones if it were your club in that position instead of theirs. 99% of the answers would be resounding 'yes's' to the first scenario and resounding 'no's' to the second. We all know that to be the case but it hurts to admit it.

Celtic supporters are giving the provincial clubs hell for looking after their own best interests when the Old Firm have been doing exactly the same thing for years at their expense. I personally won't agree with the decision of the member clubs either if they let us straight back into the league, particularly if there are no further sanctions put in place, but I will understand and respect why they would choose to do it.

You obviously don't want to give me a definitive, unequivocal answer to the questions I set, it is difficult to give an entirely honest one when it relates directly to your own club and involves your own emotions and morals instead of someone else's and realistically I am not expecting anyone else to agree with me or give me a straightforward honest answer to these questions either. Nevertheless, the point still had to be made in defence of the so-called 'diddy' teams (I hate that phrase as it is entirely disrespectful) who make up the 'rebellious ten' (I have to laugh at that one too - surely its the rebellious two if they constitute a majority?) and the stance of their owners.

Believe it or not, I wouldn't disagree with any of the comments you made in your reply (apart from the fact that there are no rules currently in place and that is why we have this 'moral' dilemma as to what level of punishment to inflict in the first place - even if the SPL, as a separate entity and league, follow the precedent set by the SFL then technically we would be applying to get straight back into the SPL anyway as it only has the one league - none of this is straightforward and no club has went into liquidation from WITHIN the SPL before. It is an absolute moral, economic, and political minefield and every chairman's, well almost lol, worst nightmare come true). We SHOULD be packed off to division three of the SFL, if accepted at all, and forced to remain in the nether reaches for a seriously long time given our already confirmed and still to be proven, alleged crimes, but there is far more than simply the future of Rangers at stake here. That is all I am trying to say. I am not having a go at you or the other guys I normally have a healthy debate with, far, far from it. My respect for all of you is genuinely sincere and I hope you believe that. You post all my comments on here and should know better than anyone that I am not defending my club over their behaviour. We are more or less singing from the same hymn sheet. I am ashamed to be a Rangers fan at the minute (I will remain one however) and we deserve every single thing we get, if we do indeed get severely punished (it also looks as though a newco is the only route available to us now and unless it is another hairbrained hybrid scheme then the history will officially be gone too - yet another punishment, and possibly the most severe for the fans to bear, ironically). I would not complain. How could I? Neither am I, nor have I ever, asked or argued for Rangers to receive special dispensations. You know my preference is Division 3, I have said it enough times (twice in this post already at least). As for the tainted titles, if they are eventually proven to be so, then, for me, they should be wiped from the history books, simple as that. We wouldn't have won them fairly if that was the case and they should be taken back. There would be no justifiable defence as to why we should get to keep them.

Brian

p.s. This is still not a defence or claim for special treatment by the way, although it may sound like one. It is merely an objective observation/prediction, nothing more. Yes the Italians punished Juventus but they only relegated them to Serie B with a minor points deduction and no transfer embargo and they gained promotion the very same year whilst the other two teams convicted got hammered and demoted to Serie C. Big teams will get undeserved special treatment, that is the reality of life whether we like it or not (obviously neither of us do like it - at least we can agree on that). Are you honestly telling me that Man Utd, the richest football club in the world, if they were to default on their half a billion pounds worth of debt and end up in liquidation, would get crippled beyond redemption for their sins (on a side note I don't know if they employ the use of EBT's or not but the EPL is next on the taxman's hitlist - Rangers aren't going to be the only ones accused of cheating the taxman). What about Real Madrid (or Barcelona for that matter) who owe the Spanish government mega millions if not billions in tax that the other teams in the league had to pay as normal? Would they be crippled long term following liquidation if the government stopped financing them, called in the debts they owed and they couldn't find a way to pay it? The answer is no to both unfortunately, they would maybe face minor punitive sanctions similar to those issued to Juventus and then would be welcomed back with open arms as too many other clubs and people depend on them for their livelihoods and, unfortunately, money talks (couldn't resist it - altogether now - bam, bam, bam, money talks, it don't sing and dance and it don't walk,... lol). The same as with the Rangers situation I wouldn't agree with it, in fact I would personally condemn it as I have continuously done on here as you know, but I would certainly publicly understand why the smaller clubs and the football federations in those leagues would act in their best interests too and would find it extremely difficult to criticise them for it. I am being honest, all I ask is that others are honest too in relation to the questions I set. {Ed007's Note - If CFC were in the position Rangers are in I would be mortified Brian. If they couldn't pay their debts or nobody was prepared to come in and do so (McCann) then if they had to be liquidated then I would accept that. I would rather go to the wall than forever be remembered (and taunted) for a past where we have left a trail of companies owed money and the club has done 'the dirty' on them. If Rangers can't pay their way out of this then they should be liquidated, I would say the same about CFC, I would rather that than support a club that will be always looked upon as 'cheats'. Rangers fans had plenty of chances to do what CFC fans done 'pre-bonnet' and didn't.}

And still no-one has answered the actual questions asked and everyone has missed the point so far. I am NOT looking at this argument from a Rangers perspective (although, if I were, poster five has made a valid point about questioning whether or not I should even continue to support my club given what has gone on. I am more with ed in relation to the supporting my club through thick and thin no matter what may unfold nor how disgusted I am personally by the actions of a few reprehensible individuals - btw I have never sang a sectarian song in my life, I am an athiest and as such couldn't care less about religion which is maybe why I can be more objective than most on the subject).

I am looking at the current situation through the eyes of a supporter of a provincial club which has came out publicly and more or less stated that they would go down the swannie if Rangers were relegated, despite having done nothing wrong themselves. From there I have asked two simple questions which, as I said at the start, have yet to be answered.

K-Dot - still PMSL at that one mate. I will post the additional fourteen pages at a later date just for your personal amusement ;-)

Mrs E, with respect, if you read it carefully I am actually saying we should quite rightly get thrown to the wolves for how we, as a club, have behaved, but the provincial clubs (its not my own opinion - its clearly theirs) certainly appear to believe (and that is the important point in relation to the comments of poster 3) that if Rangers are indeed relegated to Division 3 then their economic futures as clubs would be under serious threat. They will not take an unnecessary gamble on the contrary possibly being true (GJ will explain why - he is a businessman and appears particularly astute financially to me), and I am arguing that no-one can really blame them for that when you think about it. At no point did I say or intimate that either of the Old Firm were above the rules (even though there actually aren't any in place yet regards liquidation occurring within the SPL - which is the problem in a nutshell) or argue that they ever should be, the exact opposite is true.

Poster 3, you are right. It is speculation. However, it is not me that is speculating (I am not qualified to do so) it is the owners and managers of the provincial clubs. In addition, I don't recall wishing the remaining clubs ill if we ever, as poster 4 speculates, completely cease to exist. Scottish football would still mean something to me and I would continue to support EVERY Scottish team that plays in Europe (including Celtic) and the National team as I always have done.

GoldCoastBoy. I can't remember being rude to you. Never mind, each to their own. I don't and can't speak for all the Rangers fans although some that don't speak for me (Leggat, Jardine, etc) claim to. Rangers are a Scottish team and, just like Celtic, should remain in Scotland in my opinion. Look at some of the most recent posts from your own fans and you will soon realise that the rumour doing the rounds on here is that Mr Lawell has either resorted to essentially blackmailing Uefa or is willing to pay a 60million pound backhander to secure Celtic's place in the English League 1 (no-one else seems to care about actual facts ed so I thought I would be liberal with my language for a change - I don't actually mean it but it does feel good, lol). Remember to wipe your own feet on your way out the door would you. Sorry if that was rude or offensive, I was just repaying the compliment.

The original questions were simple and are in no way a defence of Rangers or an plea for special treatment. Our actions are, and have been, indefensible and we should be severely punished for them in my opinion.

However, I shall ask them again in the hope that someone might answer them honestly, thereby actually defending the chairmen of the provincial clubs who are currently being slaughtered for daring to let Rangers off the hook (which they wouldn't be doing anyway) by refusing to, in their own opinions, commit financial suicide and relegate them to Division 3.

Brian
1. If you were a supporter of an entirely innocent PROVINCIAL club (not Rangers or Celtic just so we are all clear) would you stand back and let your club disappear after hearing your manager voice his concerns over the future financial viability of your club if Rangers were relegated?

2. Would your answer remain be the same if the innocent provincial club happened to be Celtic?

Brian I am genuinely sorry for the genuine RFC supporter and football man. I am not sorry for the demise of RFC as an institution. The answers above are more detailed and eloquent than I could have managed so I will do the decent and honest thing and let you and the genuine fans grieve in peace for the loss of you're Club; to make any further comment would be churlish of me. Sopot Celt.

If my team had cheated for the last decade and won countless trophies dishonestly they would no longer be my team.

The SPL clubs will have to tighten their belts but an interesting stat I heard from an Aberdeen fan is that it would only take 200(?) dons fans not renewing their season tickets to cancel out the revenue RFC fans bring to the club. That of course does not take Sky money into account but it is an interesting angle on the situation considering the overwhelming majority of fans dont want a newco and several say they will stop attending games because of it.

To assume that the other clubs will die if RFC cease to exist is a shaky premise for your argument.

Mac

I think the questions of other teams going bust is pretty weak to be honest.Yes they will lose two(at least) big pay days per season,and TV money will obviously be reduced.The counter argument would be that 300 more season books would cover the shortfall of rangers travelling support,and there will still be a TV deal(not as much obviously)on the table.This in turn would lead to Chairmen doing the right thing,namely,sorting their finances out and trimming the wage bill etc.I also dont hold with the local business argument either,pubs and local shops only survive because rangers pitch up twice a year just does not fit.Yes,a couple of pay days may be lost,but close down?On the second point,I would,as a Celtic supporter, expect the custodians of MY club to behave with dignity and honour and vote the way the fans demanded.If the vote went against my principles i would not return if the same custodians remained in control.If we did go under then i would back and support a new Celtic,paid for and run by fans,starting at the highest level we could,but behaving ethically and with honour.This is where rangers fans are going wrong,too many supporters groups not doing anything.I totally respect the stance you take re;div3 and sanctions(div3 and pay debts over time would be my punishment) and lots of gers fans feel the same.The torture argument cant be used mate,it's akin to saying if you dont turn a blind eye a spaceship will zap all tims! In our last ,enjoyable dialogue, i stated that this could be the making of a lot of clubs and have to stick by that.cheers...........green jhedi

Thats the problem the decision shouldnt be left up to people with motives that effect their own club like houston among others. it should be an independant panel that focus on punishing teams that break rules and punish them accordingly!

Simple solution ....Religate RFC and any of the clubs that support them in newco to the 3rd division and let them work their way up through the leagues as "good buddies".
Those that remain make up the numbers with div1 clubs .
Fresh start required the game is corrupt beyond repair................TTTS

Brian you said in your post Celtic are giving provincial clubs hell for looking after theyre best interests. You sure about that mate aye?. It was rangers who were threatening boycotts of away grounds, SFA sponsors and threatening SFA panelists. There have been calls for boycotts from celtic fans if the rules arent abided by regarding a newco but thats not been decided yet. As far as i can see Steven Thompson has had death threats, Rangers have called for boycotts and put the fear of god into the people delegated to make decisions for scottish football. Think you got that bit arse for elbow mate.

Ed, I know I go on and on and you probably only have the time to quickly skim each post before putting them up, but please just read the questions by themselves again. I am asking everyone on here how they would HONESTLY vote if their club were in the same position faced by, for example, the Kilmarnock chairman (an ENTIRELY INNOCENT PARTY IN ALL OF THIS. His club haven't broken the rules - someone else's has - but he could be, in his eyes, CONDEMNING HIS OWN CLUB by kicking Rangers out of the SPL - even though he no doubt would certainly want to do it morally). I AM CATEGORICALLY NOT ASKING how you would react as a Celtic supporter to the current shenanigans if Celtic were ever unfortunate enough to find themselves in Rangers position. WE ALREADY AGREE ON THAT POINT AND THAT THE PUNISHMENT SHOULD BE SEVERE EITHER WAY. All of you keep answering the wrong question, we keep agreeing on it and I keep asking the same questions again, which, it seems, people are steadfastly refusing to answer.

This ENTIRE thread is about the validity of the threatened actions (boycotts, etc) from BOTH Rangers and Celtic fans if the provincial clubs don't vote the way they want them to. Nothing else. They are being unfairly bullied and threatened from both sides and will end up screwed either way. It is like the banking crisis for me, the 'little' guys (in this case Dundee Utd, Kilmarnock, etc), didn't cause the whole sorry mess but they are definitely the ones that are going to suffer the most whether they choose to bale out the 'big' guy (Rangers - who undeniably have caused this entire mess and morally shouldn't be baled out full stop - just like the banks) or not (and in so doing end up facing probable financial oblivion themselves or at best a return to part time football - which no chairman in their right mind would would do,including Celtic's, if there were other options and they hadn't caused the issue in the first place). I don't think the criticism is justified given the doomsday scenario THEY feel they would be facing if they actually voted in favour of expulsion, and I am trying to get everyone to at least recognise, if not necessarily sympathise (depends if they lie to themselves about question 2 or not), with the extremely difficult position they find themselves in. That is why I am asking the specific questions that I have chosen which really have nothing to do with what is going on at Ibrox. There is absolutely no hidden agenda on my behalf, I would even prefer people to lie but actually ANSWER the questions than not answer them at all.

1. Celtic fans, QUITE RIGHTLY, are questioning the morals and integrity of the other clubs considering letting Rangers back into the SPL. Rangers SHOULD BE ABSOLUTELY HAMMERED for what they have done. However, Celtic fans are IGNORING the consequences facing these clubs if they don't end up hammering us and let us back in (THE OPINIONS OF THE RESPECTIVE CHAIRMEN AND MANAGERS - NOT MINE, I WOULD NOT BE HAPPY ABOUT IT!)

2. Rangers, my club, DESERVE to be so severely punished that, if we even survived as a newco (which is looking less likely with every passing day), we would be so crippled as a club that we would struggle to recover within the next decade - that is my honest opinion and hopefully shows once and for all how appalled I am at the behaviour of everyone, the fans included, associated with my club. It would also serve as a stark warning to others as to what can happen if you break the rules.

3. Managers and Chairmen of certain PROVINCIAL SPL clubs (Kilmarnock, Dundee United, Motherwell to name just three) seem to think (AND THEY WOULD KNOW THEIR OWN FINANCIAL POSITION BETTER THAN ANY OF US DO) that they would potentially face administration and/or liquidation THEMSELVES if Rangers were relegated to the 3rd Division. THESE CLUBS ARE ENTIRELY INNOCENT OF ANY WRONGDOINGS. Turkeys don't vote to be served up for Christmas dinner, why on earth should they kill off their own clubs when other options (which in my opinion would be far worse forms of punishment anyway) are available to them that would ONLY PUNISH RANGERS and not themselves in the process!?

4. I am NOT arguing for special dispensations for Rangers, read point two again properly if you still haven't understood my own feelings on the matter. I DID NOT support the stupid and pointless march NOR did I support McCoist or Jardine when they claimed that we should be treated as a special case. Frankly, I found their pleas for clemency as nothing more than brass-necked and embarrassing! We have embarrassed ourselves enough lately without adding even more fuel to the fire.

5. If I were the chairman of one of these provincial clubs I would, DESPITE my own personal feelings on the matter, act in the best interests of my own club and the surrounding community. How many times have we heard that the club is always bigger than the individual, etc. The INNOCENT players, staff, supporters, and communities that surround these clubs must come first (ONCE AGAIN, JUST IN CASE ANYONE STILL THINKS I AM SOMEHOW TALKING ABOUT RANGERS HERE - I MEAN THE DUNDEE UNITED'S AND KILMARNOCK'S WITHIN THE SPL). Honestly tell me that you wouldn't do the exact same thing if you or your club ended up in their position (NOT RANGERS - Kilmarnock etc, who have done nothing wrong)!

6. I am not asking for people to praise or even agree with these chairmen for putting their own interests first, far from it. All I am asking is that, once placed in their shoes, you can at least be honest enough with yourself to understand why they will/might do it and reconsider unfairly punishing them with boycott's etc for no good reason.

Brian

"thats the problem...punish them accordingly!" (post 14 I think?) That's a great shout in theory mate but the difficulty is getting people who wouldn't have an agenda or a football bias (even if they supported teams from the lowest Divisions). I couldn't see a way around how it is just now I am afraid.

"Brian you said...arse for elbow mate". (post 16?) As I am an honest guy I will put my hands up, apologise and say you are bang on there buddy. Rangers have been by far the worst offenders in terms of open and veiled threats and I didn't recognise that in my original post. I have detected a groundswell on here recently that supports a similar stance from your end though and even if it is not the majority of you who want to take action (a fair number of the regulars shot the idea down) even those opposed to action are arguing against the provincial clubs voting 'yes' on moral grounds. I am merely saying it is not immoral of them to take care of themselves first. Apologies once again.

TTTS.................

Mac - Interesting thoughts but it is the opinions of the chairmen of these clubs, those that know their own finances best and would have projected how they would likely be affected, that are concerned by this. My premise is based on their forecasts of, if not admin at least becoming far less competitive themselves if Rangers are relegated (which I genuinely do want to see as the end result of all this BTW).

GJ. Your point about local businesses doesn't relate at all to Rangers visiting twice a year, as you say that would simply be a minor hiccup and wouldn't result in closure. That wasn't the point I was making in the post however. If Rangers ARE sent down and any of these clubs (Kilmarnock would be the most likely candidate to go first, I am led to believe. Apparently they are just hanging on by a thread as it is.) did go into liquidation themselves, who would buy them and start a newco? They get small crowds apart from when the OF visit, they won't make much on merchandising or corporate sales I would imagine, and they don't have high value players to sell to make ends meet (I don't know if they own the stadium but even if they did it would be a property developer that would end up buying them over unless a fan with money to burn decided to take them up - we can't find one so what chance Killie?). The club would most likely disappear altogether and if it did the small local businesses would probably go to - few businesses can afford to take a big hit or dips in sales in the current climate as Clinton Cards proved today by entering administration. We would also lose football fans to the game (supporting Ayr to a Killlie supporter would be like a Celtic supporter supporting Rangers or visa versa - not very likely, lol!). As a businessman (setting morals aside for a second), if you WERE the Killie chairman and you thought, even for a split second, that any of this could happen (and he more or less came out and said himself that it would on the radio a few months back BTW), would you buck your responsibilities to your club and community and risk it happening in the blind hope that you could survive long enough for things to level out financially in an uncertain climate? Or would you stick with the devil you know, confident you could continue scraping by?

Brian

Brian