Celtic Banter Archive November 30 2015

30 Nov 2015 20:57:08
NL got his probs @ Bolton bottom of the league and no one been paid there yet this month

Usually the beginning of the end!

01 Dec 2015 16:19:21
Yes sad great guy IT was time for him to move on from us but I just wished we could achieve what he desired from the game.

01 Dec 2015 18:08:16
His ten years at Celtic meant he was almost unemployable in England . In England the powers that be have such a low opinion of football in Scotland that they would rather employ managers who have repeatedly failed rather than employ someone from North of the border . Neil Lennon knew he was taking on a club in a very poor financial state, but he had little option as no one else seem to want him.

30 Nov 2015 12:08:57
Couple of points I would like to direct at those thinking Deila's time is up.

1. If we did sack Deila, in all honesty who do you think we could attract that is willing to work under the conditions and restraints of Deila? There is no danger we could get someone like Moyes, Clarke or Keane (not saying you would want any of them) . The likelihood is we would go for someone like McNamara, McInnes or John Hughes.

2. Many people want to see us develop our own players on one hand but on the other hand expect these players to appear over night and be brilliant from the off. They don't realise that this can take years to come to fruition and that the youngsters will take a while to reach the required level of consistency once they break into the team. In all honesty if you want to see youngsters breaking through we need to give the current setup some time and realise that this is a transition period and we will be up and down for a while.

30 Nov 2015 12:31:15
100% man. RD Def doesn't do himself any favours though by saying we'll be ready for the Champions League in 2016. No evidence of that. Reckon we're stuck with him and have to hope that it suddenly or eventually pans out.

30 Nov 2015 12:38:39
Your only making this post after us beating ICT yesterday, strange how you decided to delay this post instead of posting it after the defeat to Ajax.

You're like a lot of Celtic supporters who seem to have short memories and think a quick victory against any SPFL dross means we're back on the road again when it doesn't. Ronny can't be trusted with another crack at Europe, his defence is all over the place and he keeps on selecting players who are going to cost us once again in Europe. Selecting players like Armstrong, GMS, Ciftci, Griffiths (In Europe) , Boyata, Johansen, Brown and Gordon (Who's been extremely poor this season) just ain't going to cut the mustard any more I'm afraid, any decent manager would have dropped all if not most of these players by now but not Ronny and there is where the problem lies. I do realise though he has little choice in selecting Griffiths in Europe currently but we need to find a new striker who can both cut it domestically and also raise their game to a suitable enough standard in Europe (ala Hooper for e. g) . As I don't see Ronny making this many changes to the side and still see him selecting most of these duds then in the end these guys will cost him his job and rightly so. If he can't see how poor these players are when they step up a level in Europe especially then Ronny isn't the man for the job.

30 Nov 2015 14:20:05
so if you drop all if not most off these player Athens what are you left with! pull yer head in mate getting sick reading your long winded and repetitive posts.

30 Nov 2015 15:00:30
@celticforever "You're like a lot of Celtic supporters who seem to have short memories", "his defence is all over the place" HIS defence was the best in Scottish premiership history last year! Looks like you're the one with the short memory! I think you need to look back at the last 2 managers and see things in a bigger picture. You're critical of most of the players and think Browns sh*t. Hold on we'll see if the board can get Messi and Guardiola in. Tell me something do you think we can afford ready made European players? If not the they need to be developed, this is not a 3 week or 3 month mission, it takes a fair bit of time. I see plenty of good and progress in the SPFL and I know that's not good enough to some fans but I'm happy to let the manager keep developing the players and have him grow with us. Don't quote me but I think we've won all our games in the SPFL after a European tie which not many managers have been able to do.

30 Nov 2015 15:12:03
@CelticForever:

SO this would be your team if you dropped all those players:

Bailly

Lustig Ambrose/Mulgrew Simonovic Izzy/Tierney

Biton Mulgrew/Allan

Forrest Rogic Commons

Stokes

THere are two things that need pointed out to show your view as flawed.

1. Most of these players already get a game (the exception being Stokes) . So are you suggesting that everything would have been so much different if we had played Stokes ahead of Griffiths?

2. Simonovic, Lustig, Mulgrew, Allan and Commons have all had significant injuries this season. So who would you have played when these guys were out?

It is all well and good saying certain players should not have played but the reality is on most occassions the players that played were the best available even if you don't personally rate them. So don't slate Deila for playing who he played unless you can prove there were better options.

30 Nov 2015 16:02:34
The defence is struggling this season - especially in Europe and it's no wonder when you take Denayer and VVD out of the equation and consider the settling in of Boyata and Simunovic - who do not seem as accomplished as the last pairing, but should hopefully improve as we go. Add the loss of form shown by Gordon, Lustig and Izzaguire and we have not had troubles to seek defending. The one big positive has been Kieran Tierney and Janko when he got a game and I think he deserves more games.
We have an abundance of midfielders and although we can keep the ball in a lot of matches, too many of them are lightweight and not strong in the tackle when we lose the ball. Griffiths needs a decent partner to share the load and maybe Cole will put pressure on Ciftci to get his finger out or he can join the queue to vacate the premises.

30 Nov 2015 16:32:58
Best OP and follow up points a have seen in a while!

Even Ed, says no point in sacking RD now but here it is a don't see anyone queuing up to take the post if we did but here a thing would we sack a manager who landed us a treble? I think not

But do I trust RD or believe in RD enough to get us to CL next season? Well NO I dont!

This choite/keek a have seen about the CL being the scurge of football! linking it to elitism or snobbery is just pish too I fully accept our ceiling is there and third in that group one in five seasons maybe second

But did you want to sleep with the darling in the dancing? / Drive the best car you can? / Go on the best holiday's you can? / Stay in the best house in the best area you can /?

Why the f**k would you not want your team to be in the best tournament they could be in?

{Ed007's Note - But you would pay the girl in the dancing to sleep with you or buy the car from a dodgy car dealer that's a cut and shut but looks the part? Would you use proceeds of crime to buy your fancy house or bung a councillor to get it?
The CL is corrupt and totally geared towards making the rich clubs richer, what are you going to do when the big teams all form a breakaway league and there's no CL because I can assure you, Jamie that CFC will not be invited to that particular party, hence clubs like us and Legia Warsaw looking to change things.
If owners and CEOs of other clubs are against the CL why are the fans so for it, we don't NEED to be in the CL, what we need is for it to be scrapped and a fairer more balanced competition in it's place, until then all we like is a slapper who will do anything for money because we're that desperate, to some fans it doesn't matter if we lose 6-1 to Barca simply because of the money involved and that's degrading.
Especially when you know any money isn't going back into the footballing side, let's get into the CL so that we have plenty to cover Lawwell's bonuses and the major shareholders dividend, is that really where we are?}

30 Nov 2015 17:49:44
Ed, Over the years being on this site I genuinely think and like your opinion only differ really in view over CG and accept his form has slipped post new contract

Previously we were apart of the football G20 so I honestly think that depending on the quantum numbers at such a restructure a think that what we bring as a club could be there

No longer a fan of PL a think it his DUTY in the tenure he has left ( I think he has 3 years tops mate) to use his contacts/position to find us a better platform to ply our trade

I totally agree that getting a better or fairer comp would be fantastic but that's like Turkey's voting for Christmas mate you will probably have a better nous than me as to what is a better / fairer alternative but until that time I would like to be apart of what is the best out there as I want what's best for me in life a want the best for my club

Also, the punditry belittling us is difficult to stomach mate

But as I said to you before, RD has his failings but this is DD and PL's mess not RD's ATVB JB7.

{Ed007's Note - It remains very much an on-going issue with regular discussions on the matter between a dozen or more clubs. Note that The European Club Association has no involvement in any of this, nor in anything else of note. CFC are NOT involved in any of the discussions. In terms of attendees it includes some but not all of the original G14 sides. The sides that eventually have the opportunity to go in to a breakaway in the first instance will be the sides partaking in the meetings.

Without going in to too much detail: (a) A number of clubs take the opportunity a once or twice a year to discuss various issues including changes in rules, television rights, the power of UEFA, exploitation issues for new technology streams, etc.. These discussions, the last of which were in late August in Monte Carlo, also always turn to the possibility and structure of a breakaway pan European league. Several are ex-G14 clubs, several are not, and some clubs decline involvement in such discussions. The next meeting will be in December. (b) The plan is that at some point a number of clubs would break away from their national leagues and UEFA. They accept that they would be banned from all existing club competition and the players would initially be banned from all FIFA competitions as well, but know that FIFA would be looking to negotiate in any case. It would be the end of UEFA in all probability and UEFA are very aware of this. It would also result in a restructuring of many of the national leagues. (c) The clubs would renegotiate their television rights, rights of distribution via other streams etc.. (d) It remains the greatest fear of UEFA and all major national authorities that one day this will happen. (e) Timing wise, two very prominent clubs want it to happen as soon as possible (2018) and they have the support of a third club but most are looking at 2022 being a good option. Realistically, a few clubs are looking at 2025 to 2027 and I suspect that could end up as the reality.

There is every likelihood that the big money from television, sponsorship etc. would go with a breakaway league. It would completely rupture the operations of UEFA and I would expect it would require national associations like the FA to restructure their leagues. Nobody wants this but it is the eventual consequence I would expect. Initially it could be that there is a single 16 team league with 2 or 3 EPL teams making the initial plunge. If I had to speculate, I would think (1) you might eventually see something like five or six EPL teams leave for two-tier pan European league - but it won't be based on the UEFA rankings; (2) the Premier League would be disbanded as an organisation; (3) the FA would restructure in to two 20 team divisions with lower leagues regionalised as they were many years ago; (4) FIFA would ban all players from the breakaway teams from International football - perhaps rescinding that position to stop FIFA breaking up as well - they don't want further issues but the troubles are not going to go away. I could also see many teams lose their professional status. I would think we are probably 10 years away from any significant move at this time.

For me an eventual a breakaway pan-European league would force the restructuring of many of the national leagues, possibly resulting in a British league with perhaps only a couple of professional tiers and then regionalised amateur leagues below that. Financially I do not see that so many pro sides can be sustained within the sport which, like it or not, will see more and more money going in to the highest levels of the game. Governments will ensure that grassroots sport get funding but everything in the middle (Southern, Northern, Conference, Division 2, Scottish Divisions 1-3, League of Wales will not get the funding needed to continue on any sort of professional basis.}

30 Nov 2015 18:21:57
ED show me a sportsman or team who doesn't want to play the very best opposition they can, then I will show you a loser.
We can do nothing about the CL its not under our control we can can only compete to make our club better.
Tell me would the players learn more losing to Molde or Barcelona.
Even when Lance Armstrong was competing and all the other cyclists knew he was cheating they still wanted to compete against him because he was the best.
Andy Murray ( I know your a big fan lol) , left home at 15 to go to spain to learn the game and to compete against the best upcoming player in the world (Nadal) . There is no way he had the players in this country to challenge him and make him better.
You think he would be the first in 70-80 years to win wimbers and the davis cup without doing this
Whats degrading is only going for 2nd best, as a sportsmen/team you should always try to achieve the very best you can not what supporters tell you what you should do.

{Ed007's Note - It's nothing to do with what the sportsmen want, it's what the fans want and that's simply money and they don't care how it comes about. Isn't playing against Ajax or Fenerbahce a test for us or is it only a test for our players in the CL? Tell me what would have been different in our games against Ajax if they were under the CL umbrella rather than the EL?}

30 Nov 2015 18:55:08
I think that any manager that doesn't speak ambitiously about his team and his club's future doesn't deserve to be managing at that team. Rabmac is right if we want to build a v good team mostly from within it will take seasons . If we changed our manager every time we would have one hell of a lot of managers.
McGregor shows the difficulty in bringing players through . Start of last season McGregor was scoring nearly every game but his form faded and after injury he disappeared . Two games two goals and particularly on Sunday a v good performance and now he once again comes into the reckoning.

30 Nov 2015 19:01:53
Nothing ed they would have been good games but we can't play the best in the EL and as we all know the CL is where the money is that helps develop our team.
I know we don't spend what we get in from it but can u imagine what our spending will be like without it.
There is no doubt players come if we in the CL, we have seen this recently as players wait to see if we get in or not.
Was the same in years gone by ed when there was an old firm game. Players wanted to play in it so you had better options when attracting players.
At the minute it is very hard to attract players as we not only lost 1 incentive to players but we lost both now.

30 Nov 2015 18:51:06
Oooft Ed, When I said you had better nous than me I never expected you had the "war and piece" version tucked away in that brain matter lol

That IS without a doubt the best retort I have seen you make and I hope other posters take time to digest it (y)

My train of thought was never as expansive mate but given that we are the 34th richest club in the world (even in our backwater! )

I thought there would be two lots of 16 leagues as you say pan-european and there would be conditions like stadia capacity / fan base / finance etc

If not I thought of a smaller league if we are not invited to that with the like of Ajax, Anderlecht, Basle Standard liege etc but never as expansive as that above mate nor did I know there was a movement already in the offing for change etc

Our real chance in that calibre of competitions that you are talking about are US as fans am delighted to say, games even at that level need to be attended and the powers at be will know the allure that we bring and the the volume (fans) games need to be watched / attended and this might be our biggest bargaining tool mate to get us there ATVB { (y) +.

{Ed007's Note - You're looking at it from a CFC fan's perspective, there have already been approaches made by media companies from across the world, no matter what we want to happen we aren't going to be involved in this mate, the rich clubs see us as insignificant.}

30 Nov 2015 19:20:37
Ed isn't it the case that if we played Ajax or Fenerbahce in the Champions League, they would be better than they are in the Europa League.
Like ourselves I presume these teams didn't get to the Champions League because their standards have dropped alongside ours. If we played them in the Champions League, I imagine they would have better players, and if we were there, we would have better players also.
It's not the names of the teams that makes the difference, it's the strength of these teams which would be stronger in the Champions League.

{Ed007's Note - Like us Ajax didn't get into the CL because of one bad result that nobody expected, and Fenerbahce, who you say standards, have dropped, went out and spent 43 million Euros on players like Robin van Persie, Brazilian midfielder Souza, Nani and Fernandoa but lost to Shakhtar Donestk who also spend millions on their squad every season. Does that seem like a drop in standards?
I think it's unfair to judge a team on what competition they play in or on one match, and the fact that the three of us are in the EL rather than the CL is a huge surprise.}

30 Nov 2015 23:23:37
A lot to digest. I've skimmed the above and apologies for any repetition . With the tier system suggested I agree we will be pushed out by the richer clubs initially . Our stock is on the wane but there is still international interest in our club. If this new setup comes to fruition we would have to be an interesting potential investment for a new owner? There are countless emerging markets, money men and companies that will look to invest and find a foothold. I wouldn't be surprised if subsidised football airline companies spring up to accommodate the travelling support, or extortionate airline fees for the rest that are off the list.
Theres still a generation of high ranking vote holding members of various football associations that will fight this.

{Ed007's Note - OK then, sometimes I wonder why I bother.}

30 Nov 2015 23:55:01
Keep up the good work. But consider not everyone is retired/9-5 that reads the site and a quick cig break on shift and a quick post can ruffle.

{Ed007's Note - Right to counter your post, CFC aren't involved in any of the discussions, they have never been mentioned or considered to be part of any discussions, it doesn't matter who's against this it WILL be happening, there is no vote and no fight against it - and CFC will be not part of it.
You admitted that you skimmed over it so really what was the point of trying to come up with fantastic fairy stories about how people see our club and who will have an imaginary vote against it.
It's a pity the interest in our club is international, if we had more supporters in the UK we might fill our stadium once in a while.}

01 Dec 2015 01:02:42
I did skim admitted. We are uninvited and why should we be? I never said there will be votes against us but massive opposition to the new league from many with their own agendas. This top tier won't be static. My point is that investors will look at trying to break into it and pick clubs with the stadiums and support that could. We can't fill our ground, we don't have the platform to build to a position where tv money and sponsorship could improve us. You haven't given names of clubs that are pushing to break away and I understand the reasons for that. In a domestic uk scale team spending and sponsorship has rocketed through sky alone regardless of club size. As I said the new league can't and won't be static.

{Ed007's Note - So tell me how clubs are supposed to 'break in' to it, do you think just because you have rich owners or mega-money they'll come grovelling for us to join, don't we have billionaire investors already?
Liverpool are in the same boat as us, they're not invited and they've got everything we've got plus the allure of being an EPL team.}

01 Dec 2015 01:43:05
@TheFalkirkBhoy I will say and repeat what I wish on here as long as I feel it needs repeating, so if you don't like my posts simply don't read them and ignore them.

Those players I've mentioned are all absolutely gash imo with the exception of Griffiths who is a good player domestically but not cut out for Europe and Gordon is ok but has been very poor this season so if he continues this form I think we'll need to look elsewhere.

For those saying who would I have played instead well it most certainly wouldn't have been Mulgrew or Stokes as they are both gash as well imo.

Also, McGregor is a better player than both Armstrong and GMS and Amrbrose is a better CB than Boyata.

01 Dec 2015 01:55:37
Ed you will apricate this is ground that has not been covered and I thank your insight. If your are saying it is and will be purely through a locked team group invitation then I can't see anything happening. If it is governed as a sponsor/investment/showcase led league with teams being whored for fanbase and a remote click for sponsors to pedal their worth then mabey investors might be tempted to tap into it and will look at clubs with a stubborn large support. As you clearly stated domestic leagues will be placed on the back burner. Sponsorship will shift. Roll onto 2025 say, a new uk league is in place, lower leagues disbanded or amateur status given. There are too many ifs and buts in this mate to say where we will be after 3 4 seasons of the elite league. IF we are lumped in a bigger more profitable uk league and if there is a promotion system then why not?

{Ed007's Note - I'm dealing with facts - it's you dealing with ifs, buts and maybes. These talks are far more advanced and intricate than people think. Our stadium that our renowned support can't fill can't hold a CL final but you think it would meet the expected standards for a European wide league with the richest clubs in the world?}

01 Dec 2015 02:30:31
OK we can't hold a cl final, ok we can't fill. We are talking about a severe financial reshuffle in European football that will happen in 5yrs to 10. Expansion plans for the stadium are in place planning wise. Until the full format of these proposals are released and the subsequent leagues are established I'll conceded I'm pissing in the wind. But until a framework of prize money, promotion and footballing bodies are put to the sword and resurrected then we don't know where this is going or where we will be. Initially cuffed out yes but worse off I'm not so sure.
We have been drip fed this for years and I will await the results.

{Ed007's Note - Can I ask if you read my initial answer or are you still going on your previous skim over it?}

01 Dec 2015 10:07:59
Big Jock always believed attack was the best form of defence. We will never improve by selling off our best players every season. One minute we have a great defence (possibly due to the attack keeping the pressure off them) then we have a good line of forwards (because the defence is doing its job and allowing the attack to concentrate on their bit) . In most cases when succesful its because the attack and defence can go whichever way it takes to support each other. Of course quality of player is important and right now we are too good for the SPL but not nearly good enough for Europe and I see no way this will change under current board.

01 Dec 2015 02:50:07
I've read it and the club's in discussion part I'll cosider. When clubs decided is the rhetoric I will coment on facts.

{Ed007's Note - Peter Lawwell was seen outside a recent meeting babbling something about 'best fans in the world' - he got a pat on the head, a rub on his belly and told to run along while the adults deal with the important things.}

01 Dec 2015 13:40:15
Ed, I enjoyed this thread yesterday and I did hope/ask for people to digest it furthermore from it and having thought more on it

1) The dismantlement of UEFA would surely be a great thing from it? I think that is corrupt to the core and with the USA involved in the pursuit of it I fully expect custodial sentences to be forthcoming!

2) I accept I am looking at this with an element of "rose tinted" glasses but these games pan-European need attending and other clubs no of our travelling support is fantastic (this is why the then Bolton Chairman Gartside) put up the argument for us to be included in an EPL2 also the biggest ever subscription sly have had to a football game in terms of a PPV a number of years ago was the old firm game that Andy Thom hit that screamer! A wondered if that 'mogul' Murdoch had purchased a bigger stake in sky Germany and Italy around twenty four months ago in case sly never got the EPL deal!

Can you imagine the money they would take in if they blocked the on the stream feeds? If it is all based on "greed" mate then these would be factors to line there pockets rightly or wrongly mate

Sorry if I have been a bit long winded but I think these are factors in us getting there ATVB.

{Ed007's Note - Your just making stuff up to try and justify our inclusion. There has never been and never will be any plans for CFC to be involved, I wish I had kept my mouth shut. They don't need us and they don't want us, I really can't be any blunter than that.
We can't fill our own stadium or make any inroads in European football so why the hell would we be asked into talks with clubs who have turnovers like Man Utd of £392 million, Real Madrid with £485 million when we have a turnover of £76 million? These teams see us as minnows and because we are supposed to have 'the greatest fans in the world' is a bit of a joke when you see the money, players and trophies accrued by the teams who are involved.
Oh and btw, our average attendance is 23rd in Europe, should the 22 teams above us have a better claim to be involved, clubs like Newcastle, Feyenoord, FC Koln and Hamburg?
I doubt they will want half empty Celtic Park involved in there planned footballing Utopia.}

01 Dec 2015 20:10:54
Evening Ed, I never meant to exasperate you mate.

I was not making that up Ed it is a fact that the old firm game then was the biggest yielding football match PPV

I did say I was looking at it from a biased stance I also fully get the gist of what you are saying that we are not in the thoughts of the big guns so to speak and also that if hypothetically we were we would be the minnows of a two 16 teams league but accept that if it were a twenty team league we would but not be among

I was just saying that if greed were a factor that watching us from a TV perspective in Europe they could offer it up like a PPV and IMO the demand would be massive providing they managed to block all the free streaming services

Surely it must be the case that Celtic are among the top 4 clubs in the UK that are on LIVE more times than others and even though we are in the backwater of Scottish Football the demand is there mate otherwise the broadcasters would be elsewhere?

But accept as I thought at the start you would have a better grasp of it than me (y)

29 Nov 2015 23:55:15
While expecting more from gms and Armstrong and thinking we paid too much for cifti as a squad player. i think that some people are far too critical of the 3 players who haven't even been here a year . the fact we only bought them from Dundee utd seems to be a big reason for getting rid of them . But most people want Scott Allen playing who on leaving the same dundee utd flopped at 5 English teams . is 10 month enough time to judge when people are picked ahead of the no matter how bad or injured they are ie Johanson and forrest. look at how biton and rogic are turning thingss for themselves through perseverance. They might end up not good enough but is 10 months and limited opportunities a fair crack for them?

30 Nov 2015 01:11:13
Yes because unlike the likes of Johansen, Rogic, Bitton etc you've mentioned they (Dun Utd lads) were already plying their trade in Scotland and know the league inside out so knew what to expect. The biggest plus folk said in regards to these Dun Utd signings was that they would settle in a lot quicker than overseas players.

It's nothing to do with settling in time, they're poor players way below the standard required and have been given ample opportunity to prove their worth and they've been found out this season. We've been robbed by Dun Utd imo, plain and simple.