Celtic Banter Archive May 30 2014

 

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30 May 2014 21:57:35
I think were all being a bit harsh on keanes record as a manager. He took over Sunderland second bottom off the championship then got them promoted that season. Stayed up the following season. Plenty managers since have tried at Sunderland including Martin o neill and have failed to improve their fortunes. His transfer record I admit is not the best but l maybe wrong but does the manager not identify the player then the board agree the fees. Most of his signings are from England the most inflated transfer fee league in the world so in terms of money spent is the true value his fault.
I for one am happy he seems to be interested, an icon footballer who I would doubt would settle for second best.
I appreciate the job Lennon done but one thing that always stuck in my throat was the interview he done after we were gubbed against juve in the last 16. After such a defeat thanking tv for their exposure thd club received. We lost 5 0. I don't want to hear that. I wanted to hear we must improve .
I'm not saying keane is right man for the job but I guarantee after a 5 0 2 legged defeat he wouldn't be thanking tv . If we accept we aren't good enough we will never be good enough

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Just reading online posts I'm getting blurred about what is now considered a successful Celtic Manager?

Is it a failure if its not Jock Stein standards, I just don't know and it's confusing. I loved Martin O'Neill's time at Celtic, I enjoyed some of Lennon - what do Celtic fans consider a success?

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I said I appreciated what Lennon done. I just don't understand why everyone seems happy with champions league.
Porto won it only 9 years ago, why is it acceptable we only get there. We surely don't use those 3 games at home as a tourist exercise . I attend every game wanting to win. I'm not there to showcase how good our fans are . Football is about winning. I know we are restricted financially but I hate thd fact some people talk about a great atmosphere and how well we are supported despite the fact we've lost.
All about the winning for me and I feel some people have accepted losing.
Football is all about winning.

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I have had the Mourinho/Porto discussion on here I think - they beat Monaco in the final and it was a strange CL that year but they still did win it ( never won the Super Cup though that year)

Of course it's all about winning, always has been - for both teams. The other team aren't just going to let us win and in the Champions League, there's much better players than what we are used to playing. Tactics are great but will only take you so far against superior opposition. They have tactics and quality. Look what happened when we were a bit more open against Barca, I cannot watch that every CL campaign and find that hard to accept.

I don't know what the answer is

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I forgot to say - remember goals like Jordi Alba's 94th minute In 2012? I do not know any Celtic fan who didn't feel that like a dagger in the heart and a shot of ice through the veins.

I hate losing as well Bobby.

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31 May 2014 00:43:06
I've said on here loads of times football success in this day and age is all down to cash, champions league group 3rd place is, whether we like to admit it or not is our place in the financial football league, admitedly there have been a few teams in the past with not a huge financial clout including ourselves have went further than some cash rich clubs in Europe's premier competition. I don't know if the younger generation of our support have been a bit spoiled with the scalps we took in Europe in the MON days continuing through the Strachan years. i'm 46 and can clearly remember between 1985 and 2000 barely being able to get past the 2nd round of the Uefa cup, scraping past Fc Tirol being humiliated by the Swiss giants of Nauchetel Xamax 5-1 and being dumped out by Fc Zurich, Euro football after Xmas was beyond us and when this new glitzy tournament called the champions league started up it seemed we would never get the chance to play in it . I think some of our support need a reality check, we all know we are a massive club in fanbase terms but unfortunately in the modern day tv cash driven football world we simply can't expect to be doing anything more than we are.

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Mrs e, do you honestly think nls tenure was successfull?

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Deep River Bhoy, I wouldn't say it was a total failure but that's what I'm trying to say what would we consider a success? I don't know, what are your views?

Agree Stevie, the money situation cannot be ignored, we don't have the TV cash of the English leagues nor do we have a population of over 80milion like Germany. I'd put a good wager on an English team winning the Champions League again in the next 5 years whether we like the English or not, this is the reality.

The income of these leagues is:-

EPL - 2.9bn
Bundesliga - 1.9bn
La Liga -1.8bn
Serie A - 1.6bn
Ligue 1 - 1.1bn

and these figure are old and don't take into account the EPL's new TV deal.

Dermot Desmond is on record as saying:-

'For those people, I really have no respect or regard whatsoever. When people say that you can just solve all problems by throwing cash at it, it’s absolutely stupid. It’s an insult to my intelligence. So those people, if they’ve got lots of money and they want to throw cash at it, we’ll take it every time from them.

'i don’t believe in burning pound notes or euro notes or whatever the currency is. To me, if you start that approach, you’ll go bust pretty quickly. It doesn’t make any sense and what you’re doing is deferring a problem. You’re propping up something that doesn’t have a foundation and it’ll soon collapse. What we are trying to do is build the club.

Nobody has the divine right for success. It’s not a formula in football: it’s an art picking a manager; and then it’s an art finding players; and it’s an art then of putting the right team together'

Fergus was the same. I don't have millions to give Dermot and don't really think I totally agree with this attitude as fans give millions in ticket and merchandise but this is his stance.

I know other Clubs outwith these leagues do get to European finals including Scottish 2003 and 2008, it's just how do you consistently do it without the money?

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We certainly can't with that attitude Stevie mate.
I'm realistic to know winning European games is a tall order but we have done it. Barca game wasn't even two years ago. The same season we nearly got a draw in the nou camp.
My point is why do we treat the champions league like a party. We have our own league constantly ridiculed with the teams we play against yet when we step up a level to champions league "realistically" we can't do anything? Why!
Fair enough I can take defeat on the chin but surely whatever game it is we should be going in with the mindset we can win . Just my opinion mate

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Imo, failure would be winning league only and not qualifying for cl group or Europa, and successful season would be winning league, Scottish cup, k o stages of cl, (although I know some people would prefer Europa to last 16) anything inbetween is mediocre and I think that's what lennons tenure turned into from playing style to signings to expectations of some supporters

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Agree with winning the league and CL qualification is always the goal, I'm not going to change that now. I prefer last 16 of the CL as well but can accept falling into the Europa if we've gave a good account of ourselves.

That's what I was saying, it wasn't all doom and gloom or a complete disaster.

I would also say anyone thinking folk like Peter Lawwell or Dermot have a defeatist attitude really need to have a look at what these 2 guys have achieved in life. I'm a slave to a wage and the 9-5 routine lol

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30 May 2014 20:13:20
With Mr Lawell saying today it could be two weeks till the new manager is announced could the Roy Keane manager ship be a false dawn . With the World Cup beginning in a fortnight wouldn't Keane be contracted to ITV for the four weeks . If so would Celtic buy out the contract or would Keane himself . I know NL was to be on BBC for it but he knew his team and his targeted players whereas Keane would have to start identifying players to bring in and who to ship out and to get to know players and surroundings . Maybe Keane wasn't to be on ITV I'm just guessing because he seems to be the main man on their panels . Any idea Ed?

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{Ed007's Note - Keane is booked to fly to Brazil as part of ITV's World Cup team, if I'm honest I don't know what would happen regarding his ITV contract but I'd hazard a guess that he would have an escape clause if he had the opportunity to return to management.}

Cheers Ed . With the money he makes from ITV and being assistant of ROI maybe he wasn't joking when he said he wasn't dropping money to go anywhere . DH

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{Ed007's Note - I don't think he's short of a few bob DH.}

30 May 2014 20:07:27
Lots of good posts about our new manager comin in. Loved HB about Zizou that would be great but won't happen. My point here is not who the manager is but what qualities the board will look for.
1 Young and ambitious.
2 Vast knowledge of young players and lower leagues, and abroad.
3 European experience would be an advantage.
4 SPFL experience not necessary as league is a given.
5 Able to spot talent and sell on for profit.
6 Get bums on seats.
7 Work to a limited budget.
8 Create a system right thro the age groups.

Don't know who it will be but I bet he got most if not all of those qualities.

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Aye good one. Coming from rayman the very person who listed owen coyle as one of his preferences for a manager. Aye, i'm sure he will get "bums on seats" hohohoho

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@DN it doesn't matter who I prefer. 1 thing for sure whoever gets the job you will slag them off. because you always know better. That comin from a man that thought Lennon lost the club money lol.

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Whoever gets the job will get my 100% backing until they give me sustainable reason not too. I'd love the board to look for all the characteristics you've listed Rayman but our board don't have that sort of drive, ambition or initiative. Quite frankly it'll be the cheapest candidate who'll work on the smallest budget.

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30 May 2014 16:42:12
Would anyone be happy if we got Strachan or Mon back? Personally I would be delighted to take Strachan back . Thoughts?

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{Ed007's Note - Strachan was a great manager for us I thought and done a great job rebuilding after MON while cutting costs at the same time. MON's life as a club manager has finished now, the part-time job of international football suits him now I think whereas I think Strachan might fancy another crack at club management, although I don't think it will be with us. I'd say he would find the Leeds job very hard to turn down if their off the field troubles were finally over.}

Present + future, leave the past in the past. As Ed says, MON has reduced his hours after a decent turn in club football. WGS is doing a fantastic job with Scotland, please don't interrupt his revolution!

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No to MON and strachan was successful with us but his style of football was highly criticised! But who's to say any one who is brought in is going to bring a better brand of football? Better choice than half the candidates being branded about!

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30 May 2014 15:52:16
One of the most 'high profile' managers in the apparent short list is Moyes and I think his appointment could be good for both parties.
His confidence and reputation took a huge knock at Utd and he will be anxious and a bit apprehensive about his next job and maybe Celtic would be the perfect chance to get back in the saddle out-with the glare of the EPL.
His salary would be a stumbling block and his player relations/ man management could also be an issue?

Roy Keane also has a connection with the club and has a formidable reputation in European football; perhaps his management style and success rate is questionable? - But the SPFL is a lower standard.
He would set high standards and discipline, but has little experience of Scottish football and the tight financial restraints being imposed at Celtic.
His liaison/connection with MON could be a factor?

Malky Mckay has built up a very good reputation moving up the leagues down south although his last appointment met with controversial termination, he has surprisingly been available for some time; (I don't know if an ongoing contract settlement with Cardiff was involved?). Like Moyes, he has been based in England for several years and may wish to stay?
If he was appointed, I think he would be a success.

Henrik Larsson is a popular option with media and supporters and his affection for Celtic is undeniable. His management experience is very limited both in career years and quality of football, but we have went down that road before with untried men like Barnes and Lennon - so Henrik has as good a chance as anyone. He rarely takes risks though and sticks to his guns when making a decision and this job may have arisen too soon for both parties?

Jackie MacNamara is one of the brightest young managers in Scotland - and his progression to the Tannadyce hot-seat where his United team played some good stuff and produced fine young quality is proof of his ability - although he missed out on a much anticipated trophy in the Cup Final.
Whether that would go against him along with a lack of European football experience is a big possibility.

Stevie Clarke has built up enormous knowledge and experience - mainly as a coach at Chelsea (we might forgive him for that), West Ham and Liverpool.
He has worked under some top managers and been involved with some very good teams and players and had a very good time at WBA as manager until he was dismissed, but his team did play good football.
Maybe Celtic would give him the chance to develop but he has to hit the ground running with CL qualifiers coming up which are new to him too.

Owen Coyle - is as welcome as a haemorrhoid.
But may be 'sprung' on us - as he was their first economy brand choice all along?

Sorry if I missed your favourite candidate, I got bored and fed up waiting for the 'white smoke'.

JJ

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Good points JJ.
I don't think Keane would tolerate the boards penny pinching ways. He has thrown his toys out of the pram before when things aren't done the way he likes. I'm not saying he was wrong on previous occasions but I suspect there would be a constant undercurrent of him being dissatised at CP.
Moyes must be feeling hurt after what happened. I just wonder if the wounds have healed yet enough for him to take on our challenge.
Malky was involved in a dispute with Cardiff but I think it was resolved a couple of weeks ago.
Henke doesn't have enough experience for me. I know others have stepped up before now without too much but I don't want him damaging the legend status he has with us all.
Jackie is a bright young manager. I think Celtic is a bit too big for him just yet. We could easily see another mini-Moyes at Utd experience happening if we took him on.
Stevie Clarke seems to have great experience as a coach but is he the complete package we're looking for and needing?
Coyle doesn't do it for me. He did have some success down south but he had big failure too.
I maintain that we should go for a European manager who has some pedigree of success. Europe is where we want to succeed and we won't do that with managers who don't know where France or Italy is on a football map of experience. There is too much emphasis put on ex-players or guys who are Celtic fans for my liking. We should be a progressive club and whilst some of these guys tick some of the boxes I don't believe any of them tick enough of the boxes that should be standard requirements for the job.

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30 May 2014 15:13:31
What's everyone's thoughts on the World Cup then? Who are you backing, who d'you expect to win it?

I'll be supporting Gli Azzurri as my wee nonna (gran) is half Italian but I'd be happy to see Germany or Spain win it.

I reckon the Last 4 will likely be Spain, Germany, Brazil + Uruguay with Colombia, Italy, Argentina + Chile getting knocked out in the Last 8.

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{Ed007's Note - I think Argentina will win it but for once I won't be cheering them on, I just can't bring myself to cheer on any team with Messi in it so I'll be supporting ze Germans.}

Probably 1 of the most open world cups in a while could see any of about 6/7 teams win it but a actually think spain will do the unthinkable and win it again. They do have a bit of an ageing squad with xavi, alonso, villa etc but if costa gets fit and starts then they have a great chance. Germany are due a tournament win so a wouldn't rule them out. Between they 2 for me

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Anyone but England (or Brazil) for me to be honest mate lol. Would love a complete and utter outsider like Belgium or USA to win it!

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Germany to win if they can handle the heat, but I'm going to stick a cheeky fiver on Belgium

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I've missed something ed, ( why messi)

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{Ed007's Note - See below.}

Whats the beef with Messi ed007? Not to come across as a messi lover myself its just not something you hear regularly from football fans these days

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{Ed007's Note - The way everyone, from supporters and pundits to UEFA/FIFA, fawn over him gives me the boak. If he hadn't been pumped with HGH we would never have heard of him and the world would be an all round better place.
Messi could never have made it without the aid of HGH, he could easily have lived a normal life and been perfectly happy, but he could never have been a professional athlete. That makes him a cheat and IMO and he shouldn't even be allowed to play football. I also think he's over-rated, he can only play in the one system, the one that is built around him, Ronaldo is a far better all round player than Messi.}

Ed at what age was Messi given this treatment?

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{Ed007's Note - He was diagnosed with a growth hormone deficiency at the age of 11. His family tried to broker a deal with River Plate to pay for the treatment but they refused, Barcelona stepped in and offered to pay Messi's medical bills on the condition that he moved to Spain and enrolled in their academy.

Thanks, wudnt a normal small child with no athletic abilities get these treatments too tho. There would have been no guarantee he would have made it or that the treatment works ed. A little bit harsh on a child me thinks.Surely there is nothing wrong with this for a child of 11, he is not exactly a pro footballer therefore doesn't come under any rules for banned or illegal substances, and is this treatment not legal anyway?

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{Ed007's Note - He wouldn't have been able to become a professional footballer without the treatment but he could have led a normal life. HGH is illegal in sport, ask Lance Armstrong about it, the doctor at the centre of his own doping scandal also worked for Barca over the years. Spanish football, at international and national level, has had the cloud of steroid use, HGH and blood-doping casting a shadow over it for a long time now.}

Always look for the Germans or Dutch to produce the goods and haven't done for a long time.
A bad Brazilian side isn't going to be far away IMO.
Would love japan/Belgium or an other outsider to win it or at least get people talking. Hate international fitba but world cups different :)

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Think Brazil will win

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30 May 2014 20:46:57
Not bothered who wins it and I know Engerland won't win it, but I don't think it's an open world cup, I think Brazil will win it comfortably, not just because I believe they have the best squad but if they find themselves struggling i'm sure they'll be helped out by the officials as most hosts do.

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Ed exactly my point he wasn't in sport, he was 11 yrs old.He would not have made these choices his parents and advisors wud.

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{Ed007's Note - He was in sport, he was with Newell's Old Boys since he was 8 until he was 11/12. People knew he would never be big enough to become a footballer and his parents approached River Plate to see if they would pay for the treatment in return for Messi signing for their youth team/academy. Without HGH he would have went on to lead a full and comfortable life.
Are you actually saying it should depend when you used performance enhancing drugs, would you give your 11 year old a performance enhancing drug so he could compete at Mister Universe when he's 22? Weren't CFC fans up in arms wanting Rangers stripped of titles for historical cheating? A drug cheat is the lowest of the low IMO Rangers wouldn't have won titles if they had paid their taxes and Messi wouldn't be a professional footballer without HGH.
Messi himself has said:

"I know how important it is to have a helping hand. In my childhood I had difficult times because of hormonal problems. If I hadn’t had support, I wouldn’t have been able to fulfill my dreams."

It must be serious when even cyclists are accusing you of cheating!!}

Ed surely it can be argued it was a medical issue, and not a performance enhancement drug, it can't be denied he has a god given talent.

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{Ed007's Note - If it was a God given talent do you not think God would have gave him the body to go with it, and why the big cover-up? More importantly, if it was such a severe medical issue why did his treatment need to be paid for? Argentina isn't exactly a third world nation, it has a very competent health service.
The 'god-given talent' argument didn't work for Lance Armstrong, and he had his grandma testify that when he was a toddler she knew he was going to be a champion cyclist, his natural talent was there for everyone to see, even on his Mutant Turtles tricycle peddling up and down the street, chasing the ice-cream van and shouting obscenities down drains to Splinter, she knew he would one day win the Tour De France.... but only if he cheated and used performance enhancers.}

I think Uraguay are in with a good chance of winning it. They've got some real quality in that squad and it might just all come together for them at the right time.

Also, Saurez is much better than that wee cheating git Messi! :D

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30 May 2014 10:59:55
Izzy and Lustig sign new 3 year contracts. Good news on that front thought Izzy had a great season last season and Lustig looked very good before his injury.

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Delighted to have Lustig re-sign, Izzy I'm a bit so-so about. If he's going to be first choice LB next season again I'm dissapointed, if he's going to be moved to LM or be 2nd choice LB then I'm fine with him signing a new deal. Decent domestic player, defo not good enough in Europe.

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Agreed HB Lustig was our best player during the CL campaign,

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30 May 2014 10:08:33
Having scrutinised the RK signing record(s) on the team page, I would be hard pushed to see where the "value for money" is?

Not too sure if RK is dynamic enough on that front

maybe its RK for a few months (and MON) until we get Henrik in come November.

I now believe that there will be no big surprises in terms of the appointment; talk of Weighorst, or Laudrup or Garcia or any left field young dynamic emerging european coach seems very unlikely

CFC managerial signing records

burns
venglos
jansen
barnes/dalglish
o'neill
strachan
mowbray
lennon

Venglos & Jansen were the only surprises and that was a long time ago

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He's spent over £90m in 4 yrs as a manager. All he has to show for it is a Championship winners medal, 2x Championship Manager of the Month awards + a measly 39% win ratio!

Sunderland 2006-07 total spent was £6.9m on 13 players: Won the Championship (promoted to Premier League) but got knocked out the League Cup in the 1st Round + FA Cup in the 3rd Round.

Sunderland 2007-08 total spent was £46.14m on 17 players: Finished 15th out of 20 teams in the Premier League, knocked out the League Cup in the 2nd Round + the FA Cup in the 3rd Round.

Sunderland 2008 total spent was £28.45m on 10 players: He was sacked at the beginning of December after a 4-1 home defeat to Bolton at the end of November. The club were sitting in the bottom three, out of the League Cup in the 4th Round + yet to enter the FA Cup.

Ipswich 2009-10 total spent on £7.4m on 6 players: Finished 15th out of the 24 teams in the Championship, out the League Cup in the 2nd Round + out the FA Cup in the 4th Round.

Ipswich 2010 total spent on £2.325m on 8 players: He was sacked at the beginning of January with the team were sitting 19th in the Championship after losing to Nottm Forest, they were still in the League Cup + yet to enter the FA Cup.

Is he really what Celtic needs right now? I highly doubt it?!

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I tried to cut and paste an article in the telegraph of his signings at sunderland but must have made a james hunt of it, if people think nl bought some crap roys list is even bigger, imo he got the jobs he has had through his brilliant career as a player, and people hoping he would carry that into management, but how many brilliant players have we seen failing in management, john barnes anyboby?

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That can't be true he paid 8m for Anton Ferdinand!?!

Generally, I think Keane is a coach, FAI have got it right with him under MON.

Sunderland or Ipswich aren't easy jobs but there are managers, some who have been doing it less time than Keane, who have much more to show. And his signings look largely to have been poor.

No problem with managers signing players they are familiar with, but there is a problem if your scope doesn't go any further.

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Haha, it's on the Teams page mate. Ed said so further down cause I tried to post the same article!

Over £90m on more than 50 players in roughly 4 yrs as manager at Sunderland + Ipswich to only achieve a Championship winners medal and 2x Championship MOTM awards is simply staggering. Not to mention also managing to get sacked from both roles.

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30 May 2014 08:47:06
I don't want Roy keane il like a manager that can bring something different to celtic from Europe but if Roy Leanne is the boards choice the board would have to back him with desent amout of money for change the squad because he won't take rubbish of the board and I think he would attract better players than an Owen coyle, Jackie mc, malkey would attract that's everybody thoughts?

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RK as a player was fantastic - as a manager abysmal - mind you, your local lollipop man could manage celtic without losing the league.

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BBB Think Ally would struggle don't you
Tambhoy

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30 May 2014 08:38:45
Anyone else think the release of the Keane talks is a smokescreen?

Why only his name released?

Me thinks either a deal is done and Celtic Fc are trying to gauge reaction or they are trying to flush out their preferred candidate.

I would prefer someone with more Euro managerial experience. Keane being the ultimate midfielder I can't see him having Mulgrew in the team, I also think Commons and Stokes could be in trouble with their preconceived lack of fitness

Lennon was a great Celtic player but Keane was a great World Class player. Respect!

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The way I see it is Celtic spoke to him, in most job vacancies the recruitment team will speak to ALL candidates before coming to a decision. I hope that's the case with the Celtic job rather than first past the post gets it!

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