Celtic Banter Archive August 29 2014

29 Aug 2014 21:58:04
Ed read on ssn (hq) lol that there will be a change to the seeding next year for champions league will this affect us and if not do you not think we are getting a bum deal having to play 3 qualifiers every year before we get into the groups it's ridiculous it's not celtics fault that every other team in spl are getting spanked in the first or second round qfs, I mean u think about it we have been in the group stages numerous times been in the last 16 twice yet we still have to go threw these 6 games and hope we don't hit a banana skin and then there is the fourth team from England, Spain etc walking right into the play off round the big teams keep getting bigger and sod the rest that should be new uefa slogan!

{Ed007's Note - It won't affect us, I've explained it on another thread.}

Ed do u think it should affect us?

{Ed007's Note - I don't know what you mean, Tam, sorry.}

29 Aug 2014 21:14:30
Not to press the panic button, but how long will the board wait to see if Ronny is/ was the right man for the job.

2 points clear at xmas?


thoughts please.

@cprs1 John Barnes got till Feb, Tony Mowbray got till March IMO RD won't survive a "cup shock" for more than a week

TM won us the pre - season "Wembley Cup" and got us a FAB result in CL away in Russia!

Just look at today's and yeterday's polls!

A suggested after the abysmal LW game that it was too "unpalatable a poll" but NL used the first of his "cat's lives" when getting beat against Ross County in the cup WGS used his in Brataslavia only real question is how many RD has left IMO this squad went circa FOUR months without losing a game or even a GOAL! what chance does he really have? atvb

29 Aug 2014 20:55:33
Just reading previous texts on lawell! I appreciate the frustration but think calling the man a liar is harsh! I think if Peter lawell was to leave the club we would be weaker as a consequence! Celtic need to be freshened up, new blood and investment introduced at a senior level! The previous policy of buying "rough diamonds" is now being used by every mid level club in Europe. We have toinvest in local talent early. If we wait the lower division English club will swoop( backed by 1 million scots football fans ploughing vast sums into their banks via ssn). We need a "slight" adjustment in policy not a spending policy that will jeopardise the club. Sky is killing scottish football and celtic not Peter Lawell!

I agree that Lawwell is not the only reason why we struggle . We have signed excellent goalkeeper defenders and midfielders. Where we have struggled is with creative, wingers and strikers. We need to find out why we have problems securing the right players for these positions and take steps to sign or develop better players for these positions .

I agree 100 % sky dictate all of British football if we are ever to get into the epl it will be by the say of sky not the clubs! At the end of the day they are the ones paying the big money to these clubs in England and giving us heehaw as for pl I think him and board are more interested in keeping a healthy bank balance for the club rather than a healthy team sheet .

Tam I think the Board are fully aware that the difference between a healthy Balance Sheet and a Club in financial hardship is rather narrow . One buy of 5/8 million that doesn't instantly produce the goods could cause serious problems.

29 Aug 2014 19:31:06
ED007 what are your thoughts on what Lawwell has said tonight.?
My own thoughts are that firstly he had to put his head above the parapet to deflect away all the flack from him.
His "every penny coming in, is reinvested" got my blood boiling as we all know that is patently untrue.
Also his points about Long and McCormack etc costing £11m+ all us Celtic fans know this and are not asking for such huge outlays.
What we do want is reasonable investment each year in the team either by bringing in 2 or 3 better players than we currently have or invest in players like McGregor with longer contracts. Just to clear up "investment" a kitty of say £6m each season could get us 2/3 good players.
Also we Celtic fans are fed up having Sevco and their financial woes waved in our faces as a reason not to invest in the playing staff, Sevco are poorly run, Celtic FC are not.
If players in the England's lower divisions are too dear then look at up and coming players in Scotland, off the top of my head May, Russell, Mackay-Steven, Robertson etc would all have done us a good turn for not a massive financial outlay AND had a sell on value also.
Despite everything Celtic have still sold over 40,000 season tickets this season and no doubt will buy Europa tickets in big numbers 35,000+ probably so we the fans are playing our part, it is time the board did theirs.

The guy is a complete idiot defending the indefensible. I wonder how many of the guys who slaughtered me a few years ago when I called him Liewell will be out in force to defend him?

I'm no body language expert, but there was a fair amount of licking of lips in between sentences and as you say Tim, he had to make some sort of party political broadcast on behalf of the biscuit tin party. He has sold our best players for incredible profit and replaced them with mediocre, cheap alternatives; not to mention CL revenue for last 2 years and other revenue and the sums don't add up.

29 Aug 2014 21:20:09
It is still patently obvious that if the club speculated a little, they could have gained a lot. Sometimes you just have to pay the going rate. If you want to be a football club in the business of football, that's what it takes. Other supposed lesser clubs all over Europe seam to manage it. We need to stop believing we are a big club and get back go bloody proving it and unfortunately that cannot be done on a shoestring!

I have no time for any Celtic fan calling Mr Lawwell, Liewell I don't agree with all he has done but to sink to the level the people fans used sink to is not for me.

Jungle Jim
Are you questioning Celtic's auditors?

I only listened to a wee bit of the interview. I just don't know at all

It makes no sense for Celtic not to have players to sell or Champions League money coming in - where else do they get money from and I mean serious money. It has to be part of their plan to get a squad capable of getting to the group stages surely and providing nights like when we beat Barcelona or back in Strachan's days with games like Man Utd

I'm clinging to this hope anyway!

30 Aug 2014 09:41:17
Lawell says he is trying to keep hold of zvVD. Here is a snippet from the Newcastle newspaper

However the Chronicle (Mark Douglas) is reporting today that Virgil van Dijk was offered to Newcastle twice last week, so if that is true we suppose the Dutchman could be a good possibility.
So is Lawell really trying to hold onto VVD or is there any truth in this story? I also heard that he was offered at £8mill and Newcastle said no. They will pay £6.5mill and as VVD has handed in a transfer request it's the equivalent of getting over £7 mill and the deal will go through. Let's see if he plays on Sunday or will RD claim he has a slight injury? So make up your own mind about PL and his version of events. We shall know by Monday night.

Yourman; Is that you Peter?

29 Aug 2014 16:43:52
Ed just reading on TV that UEFA say seeding for CL will change next season. Benefiting Celtic possibly or not?

{Ed007's Note - The changes means that the top eight seeds will comprise of the defending Champions League winners and the seven domestic league winners of the top-ranked UEFA nations. It means that this year's situation of Chelsea and Arsenal being in Pot 1 while the PL winners Man City were in pot 2 won't happen again,}

Thanks matey. Thought it looked iffy with City being in 'harder' pots. Was hoping the Fenian Alliance might have been at work.

{Ed007's Note - Sadly not.}

29 Aug 2014 18:20:13
Hi ed what do you know about our opponents in europa league.killy

{Ed007's Note - Not too much if I'm honest, Killy.}

29 Aug 2014 16:14:44
So with the Europa League Group stage draw concluded we have an excellent chance of progressing to the knock-out stages. I know a lot of fans are still hurting that we aren't going to be competing in Europe's top tier competition, but like I've said before I believe this is our level at least for the next year anyway.

With the inclusion of Gordon, Denayer, Tonev, Wakaso and Scepovic to be concluded as well I'm still hoping for a few more signings (I'm not to confident there will be any). With RD's 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 formation I think it's obvious we need a creative midfielder. He's tried Johansen there and I think he's more of a box to box midfielder in the same mould as Broonie. Izzy needs competition that's for sure and I would like to see another CB coming in.

With players coming in, players need to go out as well. I think we can all agree that Leigh Griffiths time at Celtic has been pointless and is not the level of striker we need. I wouldn't be too bothered with Matthews leaving either with his injuries he's too much of a liability and I would like to see Fisher pushing Lustig at right back. I think Derk is in the same boat as Matthews too many injuries and not enough game time. It doesn't seem likely this season but I think RD may well look to offload Mulgrew next season. He has been useless and hasn't shown any leadership skills to warrant the captains armband.

Players I would like to stay at celtic are: Pukki, in my opinion he can come good, he has shown glimpses of his skill set and hope he gets the chance this season. Biton as far as I have seen is calm on the ball and plays a simple game in midfield never looking for complicated passes unlike some in our team who would rather give the ball away than pass 2 meters to the side of them. I think Stokes is going to stay regardless but he just doesn't do enough for me he moans and groans has a touch like an elephant and just can't hold the ball up. He's the only striker I know that spends more time out on the slide lines than through the middle.

I think a lot of you may disagree with me on the players staying ect but this is my opinion.

P.S let's see how RD's formation and tactics plays out rather than judge him on a team that isn't his.

Totally agree with your comment on Pukki and Biton.

Pukki puts an excellent shift on and I think he would work well in a two. Big guy little guy.

Biton reminds of Busquets very tidy on the ball always looks languid and lazy but he can read the game.

Mulgrew's time is really up in my eyes.

Hail Hail

I agree with you Chris

I'm not sure why anyone would want to keep pukki. He's had more than enough chances and glimpses of talent are simply not good enough

Chris the hoop,

given biton's age and busquets age perhaps we could do a straight swap?

just saying….

I agree with you Bobby Pukki realises the weight of the jersey and cannot handle it!

Never even made the bench on Tues

I heard pukki is away on loan to a German team, anyone else hear the same?

29 Aug 2014 15:04:02
I said before the EL could be good for our team to get a bit of Euro experience together at a lower standard. Then we got back in, got knocked out again and I subsequently lost the rag at our terrible performance. After some time to calm down I now think that the result against Maribor is just the final confirmation that CL this year could/would have been extremely embarrassing. After today's draw I see all 6 games as pretty 50/50 and think we have a good chance of making the knockout stages. We've been punching above our weight the past couple of years but looking at the current team, this is our level just now so hopefully we can go as far as possible. I am not happy with the situation, I believe we should have a better product on the pitch but it is what it is for the moment and a decent run in the EL, along with the league and hopefully at least one of the cups, has to be seen as a success

Im happy with draw. Team to watch out for though is Red Bull Salzburg, think they will be hardest opponents.

Just hope we get a couple of new faces in before transfer deadline.

Totally agree. We need a new LB and probably a CB to accompany Scepovic and Mubarak. We are suspect at the back. The EL is a bit different because we have a team capable of competing well at this level so I'm quite excited by the prospect. It's no comparison to CL but it's not as bad as people make out. Remember Seville?

29 Aug 2014 13:44:12
Hard enough draw can't see us getting out of the group tbh unless we get another 3-4 players in. Salzburg are a class above us and hard to get a result away against other 2 but can only hope

Why do you automatically assume we can't beat Astra who are a complete unknown team. Hopefully Forrest brown scepovic wakaso and possibly others will improve us.

29 Aug 2014 15:47:36
Well Jim Lyon couldn't get a result against them in the previous round, so not too confident we can at present

29 Aug 2014 17:19:13
Jim1972 have you watched the team play over on Tuesday night? Don't know how you can say we can get out the group? Maribor are no worse than any te on our group. I hear PL talking about £12 mill for Shane Long and justifying why we can't compete with English teams so why don't we buy Scottish players? The average earnings at Maribor are 10k euro a month. That's £8,500 a month. Believe me no one in our group is any worse than Maribore.

The Champions League is over for us for this season . We all hurt, I hope the players and players hurt more than us.
Let's hope our (initial) six games at a lower level in Europe increases our confidence in facing such games next season . We are where we are and must look forward .

As I said hopefully with brown wakaso scepovic denayer Forrest and hopefully more our team will improve to play teams that are no better than legia/Maribor

29 Aug 2014 11:05:02
Don't no why all the celtic fans on here still buy into this celtic fc propaganda of we spent 3m here and 2.5m there! It's all pure rubbish. Boerigder was suppose to of cost 3m and Neil Lennon said he was less than 1m and I bet scepovic was the same. I think celtic are secretly putting these over exaggerated prices out to media to make the fans think they are spending money.never in my life as a celtic supporter have I felt so let down and hurt by this celtic board

Belfast celt

Wasnt sure if it was true but I had posted previously what a sevco mate had told me. Some of the reported transfers out in recent years had the saved contract wages added to the total. don't know where the 3m total transfer came from but it could of been wages inc again. We don't get to see the true breakdown of figures and I agree in the respect that we have had money come in the last few seasons and it appears that we have had big totals fed to us from somewhere to keep the peace. If the DB deal had worked out none of us would of sniffed at 3m, it would of been fine but the fact remains we still spent 1m and wages on a guy that has done nothing. I only think lenny let that slip to ease the backlash .
Im holding judgment till I see the new guy kick a ball. We need him to work out

{Ed007's Note - So who is paying all of this? What is paid by the buying club would typically include:

(a) Transfer fee - the big number.
(b) Any levy applied by the local FA – 5% for the EPL.
(c) Tax due on the transfer fee – typically this will be VAT (at varying rates across Europe) some or all of which should be reclaimable.
(d) Agent fees – this may be to one or more agents.
(e) Tax due on the agent fees – typically this is VAT at the local rate where the agent bills from – it is not reclaimable.
(f) Intermediary fees – this may be to one or more sponging leeches(what do you mean you have a super agent?) .
(g) Tax due on the Intermediary fees – typically this is VAT at the local rate where the Intermediary bills from – it is not reclaimable.
(h) Signing on fee to the player (possibly including non-reclaimable VAT if the player is VAT registered).
(i) Legal fees.
(j) VAT on legal fees which is reclaimable.
(k) Moving/relocation costs for the player.
(l) VAT on moving/relocation costs which is reclaimable.
(m) Paying up insurance costs to the selling club (sometimes waived).
(n) Variables and tax on variables which may or may not be reclaimable) – these would typically include legal fees, moving/relocation costs, etc.. This was off the top of my head and I may well have forgotten something. The big numbers are the transfer fee, agent fees (as an example, Liverpool have spent £35M plus VAT on agent fees over the past three years) and possibly other intermediary fees (what do you mean you have a super agent?}

With outgoing transfers what is paid by the selling club would typically include:

(a) If the player is under 24, a Solidarity contribution paid to his previous clubs responsible for his training - this is 5% of the transfer fee received.
(b) Any monies owed to the player if he did not request a transfer – again this is 5% of the transfer fee received.
(c) Any monies owed to the player in terms of his contract (typically outstanding wages and bonuses).

Top marks thanks for the breakdown ed. In relation to NL quote he cost 1m , with the add ons the deal could of been closer to 3. If the tampons P+P cost 2m then why side step and give the impression it was around a 1m deal after he flopped? It doesn't give a clear message to the fans. I don't think anyone would of swallowed it if our marquee signing after the big sales of that summer was a 1m player we were going off our nuts wanting decent money spent and still are.

So what you saying ed? Dirk was £300,000 and the other 2.7 mill was wages, agent fees and relocation costs but. Mainly vat?

29 Aug 2014 09:36:09
I know the CL exit has been 'done to death' and the debate on RD will carry on as the season progresses.
By the way, I see we are away again (coincidentally) after a midweek European match. Anyway I digress;
I, like many of you am more concerned at the bigger picture at our beloved Celtic.

Since the death of Rangers in 2012 we were given a golden opportunity to progress in leaps and bounds, winning as many trophies as possible and moulding a team - with the luxury of no serious rival - to build a decent level of CL experience, enhancing our status in Europe on the foundations of MON and WGS.
This advantage had never been available to any other Celtic team/manager and it was totally wasted.

We knew the revenue without Rangers was going to be reduced but season book price management, CL money and transfers would more than compensate as long as we kept a momentum of success and a cycle of promising and talented players continued ensuring the quality of the squad was maintained.

The club has failed to progress and even maintain the high levels expected (and paid for) by supporters and we are at yet another mini crisis and transition where we appear to be starting all over again and striving for any semblance of success.
We should be light years ahead of everyone else in Scotland as we literally held all the aces, but the club seems to be run by jokers.


JJ

Hi JungleJIm

Your assessment is a little rose-tinted albeit perfectly understandable; was/is your dreamlike progression ever possible in light of a very shoddy league set-up and the impatience of emerging players to go on to bugger challenges….we live in a cynical world (jerry mcguire) ….

so looking at your post again and looking at what we have tried (and failed to do) would make for interesting reading

Bangura, Pukki, Balde and Griffiths are al reasonably young and few are "inexperienced); we have portuguese cup winners in there and players that were sought after (in their earlier careers) by powerful Bundasliga sides. What did Schalke see in Pukki? Griffiths was the sae guy that could have been awarded 10 goals of the season in a single season with a faltering Hibernian etc….

We took on a young Hooper, improved him and he went on to pastures new and Celtic (inc wages) probably broke even. We took on Wanyama from Belgiam and we know how that worked out. We loaned and then purchased Fraser Forster and we know how that worked out. Ki came in from Korea and we somehow managed to pass him on for over £5m; a good player with the wrong attributes for the domestic game but probably quite effective (in possession) for europe etc.

We bought a young Kayal who for 2 months looked like the new Petrov and then an injury setback put paid to that. Bitton is young. Everyone in Oz raved about the raw talent that was Rogic and it transpired that he was less fit that Phil Mickelson. Matthews and Ledley were shrewd purchases and if the Adam moves on for +£2m (or rediscovers his form) we can put a tick in that box.

There was a lot to like about Ambrose in the early days; what happened? There is a lot to like about Lustig; a proper professional! Izzy was player of the year before he went AWOL albeit I maintain that of all the outfield players he is the only one expected to be in 2 places at once!

The one thing they all have in common is that they were/are young and they didn't cost the earth; it is a policy that made sense to me but equally, one could argue that it was a policy with limited ambition and a policy that could backfire. Buying LOTS of players and passing the PROMISING ones on quickly for 2 to 3-fold profits was always going to result in "perennial" transition periods and teams in transition are ALWAYS prone to under-perform and appear short on quality.

What we need to do now is harness what we have, demotivate those who have lost their way, show a little patience so we can see our investments grow! When we then add to the squad, new arrivals will be coming in to a re-emerging squad with growing confidence and not a squad that is bereft of confidence.

Scepovic is coming in with a phenomenal amount of pressure on him. Unfair! He is carrying the burden of being prolific and not being anything like Pukki, Balde, Stokes, Griffiths etc which is a lot to take on.

We should hope that a number of players that we have written off can rediscover their form and confidence as that will be the least transitional (and least expensive) means by which to arrive at the pinnacle once again.

The manager MUST (in the next 6 weeks) find the guys that he wants to put faith in and stay with them; trust them, mould them and believe in them!

We need to get behind the Bhoys on and off the park (and in tandem) find a mechanism to raise awareness among the Board that we anticipate better days ahead and a raising of the bar in terms of ambition and standards ….

Well said Paradise, top reply. Looking forward to the challenges that lie ahead and very pleased with the 2 players we are about to receive into the fold

Bugger should say bigger

demotivate should say re-motivate!

That aside, assuming the 2 lads coming in are decent additions and assuming RD does get his way with his one up top, one in behind, two out wide and two central midfielders with overlapping fullbacks …we could be looking at

(assumes all are motivated and want to be here and are doing what they are being asked to do)

Gordon GK
Matthews RB
Izzy LB
Lustig CD
VVD CD
Brown CM
Johanssen CM
Forrest or McGregor RW
Wakuso or Tonev LW
Commons CAM
Scepovic STK

With Stokes, Griffiths, Berget, Kayal, Mulgrew and Zaluskas (I know!) on the bench (or the 2 that miss out in the wide positions above)

If Johanssen doesn't settle down, get Kayal in there or Bitton

Are we that bad or simply a team short on confidence with a culpable manager who took an average squad (low in quality but high in confidence) and made them low in confidence….mmmmm

I am sticking by what I wrote and am convinced the squad is severely lacking in quality and experience because 'like' has not been replaced with like, but in most cases an inferior, untested and cheaper option.
It would be good business to seek and sign replacements before we punt all our best players and that's basic economic sense, as prices invariably rise when the selling clubs are aware there is cash to spend.

The amount of players that have failed to 'kick-on' their careers and improve at Celtic is a big concern as is the amount of injury prone players we have at the club. Like you say:-
It puzzles me, that so many players recommended by scouts or who shine at a previous club find the transition to Celtic such an ordeal and fail to impress. It does happen I know, but we have had more than our fair share and I won't even include the loan signings that have' bombed'.
The under-performers like Ambrose, Izzy and Mulgrew - among others would be 'rested' at any other club and hopefully RD is in the process of finding adequate cover?
The squad players got an opportunity at Inverness to show what they could do and came up short and most of them were overlooked for the CL so RD is aware of our lack of quality.

Basically I maintain that we should be in a much healthier state football and success wise than we are today (with no serious rival) and that is down to the Board, either failing to install a manager worthy of the position or backing the manager they chose to the full.

JJ

29 Aug 2014 08:10:12
reading teodorcyck went to kiev for 3.2mill and we triex to get him ladt week or esrlier . now we sign scepovic for 2.3, this isn't anotber cheapest option 2nd choice is it?

Deep river rock. It's not possible always to get your first choice so what are Celtic to do if they want to sign Teodorcyck chooses to go elsewhere . Celtic have only to option, do what the club has done sign another player . Or else the club forgets about signing a striker .

And end up with the baldes and pukkis of this world, signings for signing sake? I don't know if scepovic falls into that bracket what I was wondering was did we again go cheaper option for cheapnesss sake, if you like that scenario fill you boots.

The malcontents will always say when we don't sign up our first option and sign our second option, we are only doing so for cheapness .
It's more likely we are signing what we consider will give us best value for money .

29 Aug 2014 06:11:11
Pots for the draw. Some big european teams in there. No doubt fate will deal us legia lol. Hopefully avoid a trip to ukraine from pot 1 and russia from pot 3 and 4

Pot one: Sevilla, Inter, Spurs, PSV, Napoli, D Kiev, Villarreal, Fiorentina, Salzburg, Metalist, Lille, Copenhagen.

Pot two: Steaua, Liege, PAOK, Celtic, Besiktas, Wolfsburg, Brugge, Dnipro, Trabzonspor, Panathinaikos, Sparta, Gladbach

Pot three: Everton, Y Boys, D Zagreb, Zurich, Estoril, Legia, Partizan, Torino, Feyenoord, Guingamp, St Etienne, Rio Ave or D Moscow

Pot four: D Moscow or Elfsborg, Krasnodar, Rijeka, Lokeren, Asteras, Slovan Bratislava, Apollon, Qarabag, HJK, Dinamo Minsk, Aab, Astana

28 Aug 2014 23:54:25
Already concerned about our latest loan signing, he has stated that Samaras was a player he has liked since his Man City days, I hope he was talking about as a person not a player. Anyway welcome to Paradise ma man, p.s I'm sorry I canny mind your name