Celtic Banter Archive November 21 2012

21 Nov 2012 17:22:19
rite thats it ed if a dont get ma £50 bae fri am sendin in the baileys!
tae recoop ma loan oh n bye the waey dont even think aboot sayin it wiz a "ebt" ya big midden?
so until ye square yours truly, the widden leg staeys here wae me is a deposit rite?
talkin aboot widden ye huvnae seen wee vera huv ye?
ah kin jist see aw the junkies the morra sayin tae the sarrie cross monie lenders,
"sorry adolf bit oan the advice ae ma tax triboonul mate a huv been advised tae tell ye thit yur no gettin any mer spondu's fae me oan accont ae the ebt rulin which takes effekt pronto so gtf!"

21 Nov 2012 17:01:41
I see all the bluenoses are looking for apologies after their split decision tribunal win.......aye right, dream on!

They won it by a majority decision, not a unanimous decision. Thus the outcome is a victory for Oldco, however it's clear there is uncertainty amongst the panel in regards to these "Trust" payments.

Why any football player, earning thousands of pounds a week, would apply for a "loan" from a "Trust" is beyond me. It just doesn't add up!

SDM stated the scheme was a contribution of funds to an offshore trust and that monies paid to players were not remuneration.

Then Billy Dodds mentions Murry asked
him to receive a payment that was "due to him" through the EBT trust. After the tax was deducted the money was put in the trust fund........Hmmmmm!

Guilty in my eyes and titles should be stripped and given to Celtic. Hopefully HMRC will appeal

That would be justice.....and no apologies required!

Miko {Ed007's Note - Apologies for what Miko? David Murray tried to negotiate a deal with HMRC over it by offering them £11 million, why would he do that if there was nothing untoward going on? Would you go to court and plead not guilty but offer to do a year in Shotts?}

Aye av dun it!

Whit made ye say shotts edo hiz it been it the back ae yur heid?
nice jail aewaeys clean tae oan accont ae the amoont a ponces thit cleen iot?
nuff sade ah think!

Apologies for slanderous comments and remarks, Ed, seriously!

I just don't understand their decision, however I'm not scrolling through the dossier to try!

Miko {Ed007's Note - There is nothing to apologise for, anyway Miko, dead people can't here.}

An apology for what exactly ?

When the club went into administration it owed creditors over £60m not counting the BTC.

They could have exited via an CVA really, given 35% of what was owed was to HMRC again not the BTC.

Regardless of the verdict, Rangers were the only Scottish team to have widely used a tax avoidance scheme WHY ?

Lets not forget they have been found guilty on some counts and no figures have been released yet. The bill will be subtantially reduced if HMRC don't appeal.

Are Rangers fans saying they are happy for any tax avoidance scheme to be so widely used in the future at the club ?

I can 100% imagine the flack Celtic would have got from the quintessential British Club had they used a tax avoidance scheme and been the only SPL club to do so for over 100 employees.

Hypocrisy at its very worst. Mrs E

I still think murray and his side kick findley has pulled some strings in this decision

21 Nov 2012 19:06:05
ED007, Miko and Mrs E here is one for you all, on Sevco page some ex bears are looking for an apology from ME! ha ha oh the power I have with all the ex bears lol Timalloy ( Tax Consultant) {Ed007's Note - You could have started the new club during the summer for them, Tim Strewth!}

I'm confused as to why footballers, who earn thousands a week, would seek finance from a hardship fund?

Is there anyone who could offer an explanation?.....just out of curiosity.

Miko x {Ed007's Note - Not just footballers Miko, don't forget millionaire ex-employees like Souness.....and as we know now, Gattuso couldn't even afford clothes, Gazza bought them for him.}

Ed, you might try to negotiate a deal with HMRC if you thought it would clear the way for the sale of your club. Not even you could deny that the Tax Case had a huge bearing on potential buyers of RFC. VHSS {Ed007's Note - Or you might do it because you don't want your dodgy financial practises becoming public knowledge? Why didn't he then pay the £11 million to the bank debt, unless of course it was the bank's money you were offering HMRC.}

Ed, the bank debt was under control and a smitten amount compared to the potential figures the Tax Case and it was the bank , because of that pending case, who forced the sale of RFC. Regardless of what you think of the tribunals decision, you must admit that from the start, the whole process into the investigation of potential tax avoidence by RFC has been nothing short of a disgrace and quite clearly, it has had a devestating effect . VHSS {Ed007's Note - You still haven't answered me. Murray said there was no money owed, HMRC said there was and pursued it, Murray then offered £11 million as a settlement (yet didn't owe anything???) and HMRC rejected it. Why and where or what is a disgrace in that?
The way your old team behaved overall in the past few years is the disgrace, that's why they were liquidated. I like to look on it as a means to an end.
The Rangers fans are celebrating a hollow (and not definite) 'victory', what did the 'victory' do for your new club, is it helping Scotland's newest club to get out of the fourth tier of Scottish football? Is the 'victory' paying the PAYE and NI that was owed, or paying the face-painter or even the Rangers fans who will lose their money when their shares will be liquidated? Andy Warhol is usually misquoted, what he actually said was 'In the future everyone will be world-famous for 15 minutes'. Rangers have had their fifteen minutes now, you should start following The Rangers with such fervour, or perhaps find another hobby, golf is quite popular and enjoyable, plus it might help take your mind off all this pent up obsession you seem to have. Personally I could never support or love another club the way I do with CFC but each to their own. As I said VHSS, it's all just a means to an end, the end came with liquidation.}

Point is Ed, I've already answered your question but, I'll do it again. I believe Murray offered the money to HMRC to get rid of the false accustation of tax eveation and thus help with the sale of the club to people who could have handled, easily I might add, the existing debt of 16 mil. Afterall, the bank was happy to agree to have that shyster CW pay it. Sadly, the spector of the pending tax case eliminated any hope that the club would be sold to let's say, people more honourable than CW. The fact that it wasn't is what created administration and led to liquidation . I think anyone with an ounce of common sense who looks at how this all transpired must come to the conclusion that HMRC, not David Murray, effectively was the major player in the bankruptcy of RFC. BTW, I'm not gloating. I'm extremely upset . The club I've loved all my life is gone and it's quite clear to me that if HMRC hadn't gone on a witch hunt, my club would still be here with history intact. I don't expect any sympathy . I wouldn't expect to get it anywho...lol. However, I do think that has transpired should be an eye openner to all football fans. It's saying that if I point a finger at you, your guilty until I decide . Who's next ?
VHSS {Ed007's Note - No you haven't answered me, you have told me what you believe to be a possible scenario. There was no false accusations, there is still money owed and Murray STILL offered £11 million to try to make it all go away, why would he do that if it was a false accusation? He obviously thought it was serious enough to offer HMRC a figure that would have went to a great length to clearing the bank debt. We've been here before with your blurring of fact and opinion. You are entitled to have your opinion but don't try and pass it off as fact when it quite clearly isn't.}

Ed, Just because you don't like the answer, it doesn't mean that I didn't give you one. I gave you my opinion and believe that I'm pretty damn close to being correct . Since we're on the subject, what information are you so privy to that you can accuse me or anyone else of blurring fact with opinion ?
Let me guess, NONE. VHSS {Ed007's Note - Well as the months have proven, a lot more than you. It doesn't matter the route you take, as long as the destination remains the same, we got there in the end and kept the integrity of the Scottish game intact in the process. The drinks will be on me then....

Fair enough Ed
VHSS

Yet again you are relying on hypothetical situations and to ask for compensation and an apology is totally ridiculous.

Look at this report from 2009, a year before EBT's were outlawed and a year before any tax bill landed on rangers doorstep and they were FOR SALE at this point. What did rangers do, signed the £4m player in August 2010 that was Jelavic and gave all their top players a wage rise.

No other Scottish football team widely used tax avoidance schemes. I know you bang on about businesses being run like this but rangers were an SPL club already massively in debt and left themselves extremely vulnerable and open to this.

www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/football/teams/rangers/6433605/Money-talks-at-Rangers-as-Lloyds-Bank-pull-the-strings-and-ban-signings-in-January.html

Mrs E

I politely responded to Mrs E earlier and it wasn't put up. I'll make this a short response. Mrs E, I've never posted looking for an apology nor have I ever said that RFC's buisness practices were sound. In all honesty, I think someone else on this forum may be using my username and attatching it to their posts. VHSS

Thats alright VHSS..there are some injustices in life. Rangers is not one of them ~ Mrs E

Yes Mrs E, you are right about that. I just wanted to clarify that agree or disagree, I actually do sign my posts .VHSS

21 Nov 2012 13:51:04
D&P agreed a tax liability with HMRC of £94.4m subject to Big tax case.
The big tax case has landed in Rangers favour for less than £47m.
So the outstanding tax is £47.4m, rangers plc owe, Ticketus £26.5m? And 274 creditors more tens of millions. The wee tax case was agreed at around £5m owed.
The latest result appears to show several players were not using legal EBTs so the actual tax is due on those players side contracts. Which means they were fielded against the regulations.
The present definition of the other players having non spl registered trusts and sub trusts funded by their football club employer appears to also breach the SPL regulations which require full disclosure of such financial arrangements.

21 Nov 2012 11:59:19
Right since wanyama is suspended and brown is out for the Spartan game, going by the team we have what team should we put out taking into account its a must winner!
For me id have

Forster, Matthews,lustig,Wilson,mulgrew
commons,Ambrose,kayal,ledley
samaras
hooper

Simply because we need balance and a left foot at left back quick Matthews ain't comfortable with so id switch him to right back and play Charlie there.
Big lustig in the middle with Wilson as he offers height and move efe up in the middle kid the guys a machine and I think kayal should start alongside him,
Commons n samaras will be switching at times as saki likes the wing and offers good pace.

Spartans? If only it was..lol

Joeshmo1888

I like the idea of ambrose to replace the physicality of Wanyama in midfield but it could be dangerous to change the central defensive partnership. I think we are going to need Mulgrew in midfield for Spartak game,

Can't agree with ambrose in midfield, think he llok's lost there, when challenged.
Tambhoy

21 Nov 2012 08:55:15
Hail Hail we will still make the last 16. Sorry to mention the Daily Rangers in this post but my god they are well and truly showing their true colours today they are out to codemn anybody who had a go at their beloved club thru the full EBT senario wise up guys your beloved Rangers do not exist anymore they where liquidated give up the ghost and have some self respect YOUR BELOVED CLUB IS DEID.

Franny Bhoy.

They don't know the meaning of self respect Franny.

21 Nov 2012 07:42:20
Brown, charlie and hooperman all unfit last night. Yes big players to see on teamsheet but looking back, would we have been better having mc geouch, commons, watt on who lenny knew would be 100% fresh? Still s great chance and im keeping the faith!