21 Dec 2015 18:11:29
Heres my thoughts.
Season 13/14
Europe, we scrapped through qualifiers and then in the CL we got beat 5 times, with only one positive result. success?
League, was a massive success. a lot of big wins and only one defeat, 99 pts
Scottish cup, very poor, knocked out in our second game
League Cup, embarrassing, 1st round
Season 14/15
Europe, we were lucky to get through against Legia Warsaw and then knocked out of CL which was poor, however the group stages were good and then beat by inter milan but not embarrassed at all.
League, was a success, 92 points
Scottish cup, very unlucky not to win it, final
League Cup, success, won
Season 15/16
Europe, again undone at the play off round by malmo this time. then 3 draws in the group stages. not a good season in europe but there were a lot of games where we lost out to individual errors and were only truly outplayed for a period of the malmo game.
League, on course for 89 points (disaster? )
Cups, cannot comment yet but also cannot do any worse than 2013/14
so looking back, i fail to see how we are moving backwards at an alarming rate? i'd like to think iv assessed the season in a unbiased way.
the league has arguably improved in the last 3 years. aberdeen certainly have, McGinn, Hayes, Mclean. these are all players who would look okay in our current squad.
we have lost players of huge importance to the team:
forster (gordon has a lot to answer for for our european failures and also the scottish cup final loss) .
Van dijk, denayor. both great CH's which we have not replaced.
then also ledley, matthews, even samaras was a big player for us in europe. these were first team regulars that have been shipped out and replaced by younger players with no where near the same experience
IMO, the issue is clearly that we will not spend the required amount on wages to attract a higher of calibre of player. thus we have to develop our own talent. this means we have players who are learning and therefore they are prone to making mistakes or have periods of poor form. we have so few experienced pros left at the club, its hardly surprising that we struggle in the big games in europe.
if we had drawn 0-0 with maribor in 2014 and then got beaten 5 times in the CL would people have preferred that?
And then again this year, if we had actually scraped past malmo somehow and then gotten pumped 7-0 in the process of losing 5/6 games in the CL would everyone be happy?
Because its pretty clear that the only area RD hasn't improved us in is in the play off round for the CL.
il be sad if he leaves, i like what i see. he's also a young guy and no doubt has made some mistakes but whilst doing so he has still managed to keep us dominant domestically (even whilst seeing his squad constantly worsened) . The fact that aberdeen are 1 pt behind us is hardly all RDs fault also, it shows how well they are doing. they are on course for 82 points which is unseen by a non old firm team.
21 Dec 2015 18:52:22
Good post mate can't disagree with anything you've mentioned.
21 Dec 2015 19:13:58
Ronnie is the most fortunate manager we have had. There is no rangers therefore no challenger. Our financial strength compared to all other teams is unreal. We are buying several players at £2 mill. Everyone else is working off free transfers and a couple of hundred grand. We should walk this league so domestically winning means very little. Remember we are in dreamland compared to any other SPL team. The product on the pitch is awful. Never mind that we are leading the league by 1 point, the product is poor. After 18 months no one can coach a back 4. We look as if we can lose a goal at any moment against anyone. Where is this fast attacking football we were promised? It's not being played. When we went 2-0 up against Malmo any sensible coach would have started to shut the game out. Ronnie just keeps on trying to score and its down to inexperiance. When a game is going against us like it did on Saturdsy against Motherwell, he can't change tactics all he does is change personnel but keeps same formation. He is playing players out of position. Now you like what you see! Well enjoy the rest of the season under Ronnie. A nice guy but way way way out of his depth and I think he knows it as well. So does the Celtic board. I think it may be that a loss to Hearts would be enough for him to get the bullit! I understand the call to get behind him and support him but he is incompetent so I just can't support a manager or player that is not up to the job. I feel sorry for him but can't support him.
{Ed007's Note - So isn't RD just as fortunate as NL who had two seasons with no Rangers and therefore no challenger? And even though NL had a far superior team according to some, he certainly had a higher investment, RD has been more successful than NL was with no Rangers to contend with.
I'd say that NL is the most fortunate manager we have ever had, for a start he was fortunate to get the job, he performed poorly domestically both with and without Rangers in the league winning 5 trophies out of a possible 14 in his time in charge. Remember back to how many times people said our bottle always crashed in big games as we lost in semi finals and finals to teams like St Mirren and Kilmarnock.
He was fortunate to keep the job when PL tried to bring Strachan and Stuart Baxter in to work with with him and people in the boardroom where questioning his ability.
He struggled to qualify for European football apart from by default in his first two seasons and yet the fans still backed him, losing in the cup to Morton and Aberdeen both at home with no Rangers to compete with and fans still backing him is very fortunate in my opinion.
If RD wins a treble this year he will only have won the same amount of trophies in 2 seasons that NL managed in 4 and a half.
RD isn't the only manager to have been in charge when there's been no Rangers to contend with.}
21 Dec 2015 19:35:28
What about disagreeing with unlucky getting beat in final of scot cup?
21 Dec 2015 19:48:46
Edinbhoy
The only thing I would say to that is this
RD has to be accountable for something. He cannot simply hide behind PL ( not that i'm saying he is)
At this rate he could fail to turn up for training and he will be excused. I accept that he doesn't drive investment per se and that transfer wise his hands are somewhat tied
However he still needs to be measured against a job criteria and whatever that criteria is, I think that he is failing as reflected in a disillusioned disappointed and disgruntled support ( a significant minority of them )
I am not comfortable with RD JC and JK at the helm and unlike ED I think that RD has an equal out there who could do better with PL constraints. In fact I think there are hundreds of RD esque characters out there, some of whom would do worse bs one of whom would do likewise. Some of whom would do better
Are we seriously saying that RD is the best we can get or that he is so curtailed and controlled that he is technically responsible for nothing? Only the winds and credible draws? But never the defeats or the aimless performances? I'd love that job.
21 Dec 2015 20:05:43
edinbhoy, the league form should never be an issue for us at the moment, to be brutally honest we can't really fail.
I know a lot of people disagree with me but I think it's very important as a club that we try to qualify for the Champions league. In my opinion it's the only way the club can get in some serious money, we haven't a hope of getting the sort of TV deals that are available in other countries, and we can't make any money by just being successful in our own league.
In many ways it's not so much about the results in the CL, to me it's as much about getting the money and hopefully using it to try and attract a better quality of player, surely we all want to do a lot better than the likes of Cifti, Boyata, etc.
I like winning the league and cups, but that alone is not going to help our club grow, our league is of a very poor standard, and just dominating that alone, we are never going to attract a better quality of player, we have to try and offer them the incentive of playing against some of the top teams in Europe.
Domestically I haven't really got a problem with Ronny unless sevco come back and spend a bit of money, then we are always going to be top dogs in Scotland, but I think we should aim a bit higher than that. Unfortunately Ronny is taking us further away from the Champions league not closer, and it's not down to bad luck.
When Ronny took the job, he knew the restrictions he would be working under, if he didn't then that alone shows he isn't fit to be our manager, his time in charge is costing the club an absolute fortune, we can't just make that money up by signing a new TV deal, it's the CL or nothing.
I accept it all sounds very mercenary, but the empty seats at Celtic park on Saturday just highlights the reality of it all.
Just being happy with domestic success might be the noble thing to do, but as a club we are shrinking year on year, I think something should be done to try and reverse this trend.
21 Dec 2015 20:15:05
Ed maybe both Ronnie and Lennon were both fortunate. Either way the supporters are not going to the games in numbers anymore so I think the majority have concerns about what is happening. Understand the argument with the board but RD tactically looks lost. Really fed up going over and over it time and time again. I know this will end in tears. If the mob over the road come back I would not guarantee we will be that far ahead of them if at all. I know what I see. I know that when I offer a ticket to pals who live in Scotland when I can't go, no one bites my hand off for the ticket. Everyone is entitled to an opinion so carry on but I don't think this guy can get the best out of this squad. There are some half decent players in there. Not great players but ok. They play well below their potential. That's my opinion.
{Ed007's Note - I bet the people turning down the tickets will snap the hand off you when that mob are in the league or if it was a cup final - there's a name for 'fans' like that. In my opinion it's supporters like that we can do without, and I do hope you've learnt your lesson to be more selective in who you offer tickets to in future.
Any spare tickets I have or extra season tickets handed in to me get quickly snapped up, but I suppose the lads I know have been following the team through thick and thin for years, in fact some of them are delighted just to get to a game now and again because the can't afford a season ticket these days, we're not fussy who the team are up against either, it's CFC we go to support.}
21 Dec 2015 20:37:58
@ johnnymac i don't get what you trying to say, apart from that in your opinion he is incompetent. you haven't really replied to my post.
@jimtim yeah I understand your point. After the final its not like I felt we had deserved to win. But the sending off etc was out of RDs hands surely?
@paradisewon i'm not saying he's responsible for nothing. he has obviously made errors at times and is accountable in the end if we don't achieve our targets. But I just don't see how he is this huge failure. My post is pretty clear about the last three seasons. Show me where we are falling apart? At some point this squad is hopefully going to stop being taken apart under RD and if he manages to keep the core of the team together but still shows no improvement in europe then i'd worry. But whilst our squad is constantly having its best players taken away I will never expect results in big games in europe because that is where experience counts for everything on the park. And in the meantime I will judge him at home. His recored domestically so far is good, one win away from being perfect. No other manager could say that at the same point in their celtic career.
21 Dec 2015 20:52:38
Ed
Are you saying that empty seats is to do with cost and nowt to do with standard of performance or entertainment?
By your logic you are saying that in the past 5 years half of the fans who attended, attended because they could afford it and the last remaining few are richer? Is that what you are suggesting?
So by your logic the empty seats are not symptomatic of a disenchanted fan base?
I may have you wrong
Celtic have hard up fans and fans of modest income and fans who have well above average wealth. We are multi faceted in that regard. When travelling abroad there are some who have the money but can ill afford the time and there are those who can't afford it by have all the time in the world
I'm a little younger but the fan base has become progressively mixed in terms of socio economic status
In my view season tickets are being purchased and those same people aren't turning up and of those who do offer their ticket to others, take up is slow.
Supporting Celtic does not mean that we are required to watch mince and witness half hearted endeavours.
I love Celtic in many ways that transcends the 90 minutes
I continue to go. I don't criticise the team during the match. I do however accept that the fans you refer to as " fans we can well do without " have an entitlement to behave as they wish and if that means voting with their feet then so be it.
We are not voting for fan of the year here. We are debating about what is right and best for our club.
{Ed007's Note - If people don't want to go and watch CFC then stuff them, I'm certainly not missing them and couldn't care less what their reasons are. I prefer sitting in the company of 45k supporters than a crowd swelled by glory hunting, selfie taking customers.}
21 Dec 2015 21:18:59
I was desperate for a change - Lennon's style/philosophy was exactly like O'Neill's. Football has moved on from your O'Neill's, Pulis' etc. O'Neill used to turn up for training on a Friday, during the week Stevie Walford and John Roberston pretty much let them do what they wanted! It worked to a point but teams are always progressing, looking at new ideas - look at the German League 10 years ago! They changed everything- Lennon hardly changed anything, he even brought in Gary Parker! I don't know what it is with Celtic and egomaniacs, - I don't know who was worse, Lennon or Lawwell. I don't hold Lennon as any sort of barometer. Ronny the person is as honest as the day is long, he had great ideas but something doesn't add up! He thinks all our players are good, after 1 good game at St Johnstone he said the defence was sorted! The team is rotten but we have not progressed 1 bit this year! I was just looking at the development team there and apart from Nesbitt there isn't much else to rave about! That's not Ronnys fault because the academy is a disgrace, but he hasn't really improved it that much, - we need new youth coaches! My problem is if we were to play Molde or Malmo in July to qualify for the Champions League I wouldn't be confident! And by the way - I've spent the last 6 months arguing with Johnny Mac, and backing Ronny but it's not good enough, and I hate admitting it! Looking at teams like Leicester show you what's possible, every week Ronny says the same thing though - not enough energy/tempo, it's small details, then in the same breath says Boyata and Ambrose and everyone else in the team are great players! It's bizarre! We know Lawwell and everyone else for that matter can't be trusted, and the signing policy is a disgrace but Ronny could be doing better!
21 Dec 2015 21:35:00
Johnnymac probably best you take time to assess facts before posting utter bollocks. At 2 year point Deilas reign is far more successful than Lennons.
21 Dec 2015 21:57:02
Ed
Stuff them you say? You prefer watching a game with 45000 others. When exactly did that last happen?
There was about 25000 against Motherwell
We can't even sell out Celtic park for a final CL qualifier
A sensible approach would be to find a solution that fills he stadium and gives us a reason to be hopeful
We don't need to win everything. We simply want to look forward to next weeks football and view the future with optimism
Now if you think there are reasons to be optimistic then fair play. I on the other hand cannot see any genuine reason to be optimistic when it comes to the Celtic first team
I think it will get worse before it gets better IF it gets better
You think we are getting better? Or standing still in a better place?
{Ed007's Note - Our average league attendance so far this season is 44,486, in season 2012/13 it was 46,917. The difference could probably be the hard core CL groupies who only support CFC when they qualify for that particular tournament.
Since 2008/09 we have only averaged over 50k per match once and that was in season 2011/12 when we averaged 50,904, that's once in 7 seasons.
Do you know that in 2012 only 14,399 people could be bothered to turn up to watch NL's all conquering heroes beat St Johnstone 5-0 in the League Cup, the lowest crowd since Lou Macari's time, and slightly worse than the 14,737 who watched us beat beat Raith Rovers 4-1 in the previous round.}
21 Dec 2015 22:10:20
DN30, you only have to look at the thousands of empty seats at most home games, to see what people think about the quality on offer.
The fact that some people have said they can't give their tickets away shows how things are on the decline.
You may well be happy with the dross on show, but as is being shown by the empty seats, a lot of the support are not impressed and are voting with their feet, can they all be wrong?
{Ed007's Note - And yet somebody else has said they can get rid of tickets with no problems, sold and free. I guess it depends if you're offering them to CFC supporters. What kind of a supporter would turn down a free ticket?}
21 Dec 2015 22:14:07
why are we being compared to Leicester? they are showing up every single team in Europe this year, I don't see how they are another reason RD is doing his job badly?
their are problems at our club, no doubt. But blaming the manager right now as if he is the main one is short sighted and will do us no good in the future. Iv yet to read a good argument that shows me how we are really truly going backwards, at a rate which wasn't already happening before RD.
21 Dec 2015 23:01:50
Ed
Statistics. Damn statistics and lies. The crowds that you quote are totally and completely overstated and you know it. You are playing games with your stats. You know that reported crowd statistics take account of non attending season ticket holders
This year ( as an attendee ) there are more empty seats than as long as I can recall in the past ten years.
{Ed007's Note - So the attendances under NL weren't as good as reported either? And here was me thinking he brought the thunder back.}
21 Dec 2015 23:21:32
If you're referring to me - I simply mentioned Leicester as a relative example to the other teams in the English Premier League! They were bottom this time last year, and have only spent a few million since! Vardy and Mahrez cost less than £2 million between them, and are worth around £30 million each, so it's not just Ronny Deila that can improve players, there's coaches all over the world doing it! I'm not being unreasonable, if we had even improved by 20/30% this year I would have been pretty happy with that, but we've got worse! Last year we forgave him for the Champions League, he was just in the door! This year he got the pre-season he wanted, no travelling at all, and it's been an embarrassment! I wouldn't mind if we had the qualifiers we had before the brought in the champions route, - losing to Arsenal etc was fair enough, but we are getting humbled by teams that don't even count in the eyes of true footballing nations. I couldn't care less if Ronny Deila, Ronny O'Sullivan or Ronny Barker was in charge as long as there is improvement, but from top to bottom all I see is complete mediocrity!
22 Dec 2015 00:27:39
It's the attrition.
22 Dec 2015 09:46:50
I can't believe folk are saying RD has it easy without Rangers. Look at the media frenzy and bashing he has to take from fans. This would never have happened had there been a decent challenge. Why is he the only manager in out history to be judged on Europe?
His domestic record speaks for itself. I know the football isn't fantastic at times but I've seen better football under RD than I ever did with GS or NL. I did expect more consistency after 18 months but if we are going to buy young local lads that have not developed yet surely it's understandable that we don't win every game? I'll take that as long as I see development of these players and I do.
22 Dec 2015 10:04:24
DN30 I have never compared RD to Neil Lennon, so what "bollocks" are you talking about. I really don't care about RD record compared to anyone. I am commenting on the current style of play and performances. I don't like it. Once you learn to read come back and comment.
22 Dec 2015 10:19:52
Johnnymac, can you honestly say you enjoyed the football under NL or GS?
22 Dec 2015 09:37:13
ED, you seem to direct your anger at supporters whether they go or not, but how else do you think the club will take notice of them. If 60,000 turned up every week do you think the powers that be would take any notice of them?, or do you think they would take it as fans agreeing with their policies.
{Ed007's Note - It depends on what your definition of a supporter is.}
22 Dec 2015 11:35:15
Ed
Crowds reported under NL also included for attending and non attending season ticket holders and match day ticket sales
The crowd reporting stats have been the same for some time. The difference is that NL era crowds had less empty seats
In other words more season ticket holders turned up under NL than currently under RD albeit little change in season ticket sales
The board will feel it when the season ticket sales don't happen and then we will see crowds dip below 35000 ( reported) with only 25000 in attendance
I agree that we have different types of supporters. To be successful we need all types
Celtic will achieve precisely nothing if all we can rely upon is the hard core who never miss a match no matter the level of mince they are asked to watch
As a fan we should all want to see Celtic park full because that way we are a more attractive proposition for any player no matter the status of our league
The RD regime is lesson to fewer and fewer and fewer backsides on seats and that will be the catalyst for a re think
As an aside and to ask you again ED, are you of the view that there are NO OTHER candidates out there who would do as well ( or better ) than RD.
{Ed007's Note - So the under RD the attendance stats don't include attending and non attending season ticket holders and match day ticket sales - they were only ever counted under NL, are you sure?
I think you've got counting empty seats well covered, who cares if anyone else would do it as well. Keep up the good work. Of course there's better managers and coaches than RD out there, would Mourinho be interested, Guardiola is looking to move on? Roy Keane, Larsson and Owen Coyle would all be as big a risk as RD, what has Larsson done as a manager or coach, but they all turned the job down so who would you get in, it's all well and good saying we should replace the manager but nobody's suggesting anyone realistic to do it. Remember the shout that Owen Coyle shouldn't be offered the job because he turned it down once before, does that cover Henrik Larsson now too?
I'll tell you again I couldn't give a stuff if you or anyone else doesn't go to the games, I really don't care and the more that stop going the better class of supporter that will remain, without the PC family day out, happy clapping, selfie taking, panty wetting glory hunters going to games then football might become enjoyable again. And if keeping RD as manager keeps them away I'm all for it. Look all across Europe at fans' demos against the direction their club is going in where money is all that matters.
Supporters moan about there being no competition but the minute we lose a game - our second in 18 league matches - we have the usual sack the manager brigade out in full force. At least us getting beat cheered up the anti-RD roasters for the week. Do these people expect us to win every single game now - is that another new rule that's been added along with the no CL qualification = sacked rule that has came in since RD took over?
You say 'I agree that we have different types of supporters. To be successful we need all types', well I beg to differ, do we really need the type of supporters that will stand by and watch a bar owner get his face smashed in by opposition fans or slime that have an e-mail waiting for JP Taylor every Monday listing names and seat numbers of people singing which when backed up by police and CCTV results in either banning orders or wasted thousands as the police are caught lying yet again. Do we need fans that stand and watch men, women and kids being attacked by Turkish supporters but don't get involved because that's not 'the Celtic way'. Do we need a supporter to sanctimoniously preach to us how CFC fans should behave and the rights and wrongs of our support when their own school aged teenager was arrested for trying to take a flare into St Mirren Park and whose season ticket was cancelled and blocked after the Fir Park trouble where the CFC supporters carried out a terrorist scaled asthma attack on North Lanarkshire. I could go on and on about the types we don't need, but starting with panty wetters, cowards and grasses should help a lot, get rid of the customers and get supporters back.
CFC fans like to cheer and shout about being the best fans in the world, well they're liars, they used to be but they're actually one of the worst now.}
22 Dec 2015 12:37:56
All this talk of attendances dwindling has more to do with Rangers demise than anything. It's a lack of competition. even though Aberdeen are up there there is still no challenge, That's not the club or RD's fault.
{Ed007's Note - And here was me thinking it was all because RD doesn't tell players to stand in a 4-4-2 formation at kick-off :=o
22 Dec 2015 12:55:49
Why not just put Cole, Griffiths and Cifti up front. That'll bring the crowds back.
22 Dec 2015 14:28:51
ED, in an ideal world fans would turn up week in week out and support the team without question, unfortunately times have changed.
When I was growing up my family going back decades, was discriminated against because we were the wrong religion, supporting Celtic was our escape, they seemed like part of the family, they still are to me, and I will never desert them.
I accept though, that we have a different type of fan nowadays, they have grown up with a lot more than we had, and so are a bit more choosy as to how they spend their money, they aren't just going to come week in week out, and follow the team without question, if they don't like what they see, then they'll go and spend their money on something else.
The question is, do you say to them, clear off, we don't want you?, or, do you accept that things are what they are and do something to try and entice them to the games.
I would love it if fans would just come, no questions asked, but I know those times are gone forever, I think the club need to realise this as well, and try to put a team on the park, that people will want to come and watch.
{Ed007's Note - Tell them to clear off, we can do without fair weather supporters. If RD is given time they'll soon be back with their tale between their legs and claiming that they always backed the manager.}
22 Dec 2015 17:43:13
There's the possibility also that if RD is given time there will be nobody in the stadium.
22 Dec 2015 22:48:15
I am afraid I seem to be at a great disadvantage . We have a poster on here who claims Deila doesn't meet the criteria set up for him .
I haven't a notion what the criteria is?
I doubt if he has to count the number of bums on seats .
He probably has a league position target as a criteria .
I reckon RD would want youth introduction into first team could feature.
These may be some of the criteria that RD and board have agreed, I am sure there are many more and posters like Paradisewon who has probably asked for his input will tell us all.
22 Dec 2015 23:07:17
Ed so how time is required? Is it till the CL qualifiers at the end of this season, or is it longer? there has to be some targets set out for him so what does he need to do to remain in the job for the next 2 or 3 seasons?
{Ed007's Note - Give it another year or two and we'll hopefully be close to getting rid of all of them and getting back a support we can be proud of.}
23 Dec 2015 12:53:50
Ed what is your definition of success with Ronnie? Is it wining the league. Do you think that is enough? I hope not. Next poimy Ronnie won't last another 2 years in the job. Results in the league will deteriorate and he will go but you will probably give us a reason as to why he went which will be unconnected with the results. Ed I would love Ronnie to make this work but it just won't happen.
{Ed007's Note - My definition of success is winning matches and winning trophies regardless of who the manager is - that's the whole point of the game.}
23 Dec 2015 18:41:37
We have a small group of fans who gauge success for Celtic as winning ever game .
Then they say there was no competition .